HC Deb 30 November 1978 vol 959 cc681-3
11. Mr. George Rodgers

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has plans to abolish television licences.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

No, Sir.

Mr. Rodgers

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the licence fee as it now stands imposes a heavy burden on low income groups? Is it not true that, if BBC revenue were collected through direct taxation, State pensioners would not have to pay any contribution at all? Will he now look to a redistribution of wealth in this fashion?

Mr. Rees

There are a number of factors to be considered. There is strong resistance to this idea in the BBC, which genuinely believes that it would be under far more control by the Government. Furthermore, such a proposal would take £300 million in total public expenditure. I do not believe that we could erect a system under which every year in the PESC discussions we would be looking for a sum of £20 million out of revenue to be put elsewhere. All these factors have to be considered. I am prepared to consider the suggestion, but it is not an easy matter.

Mr. Boscawen

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider a partial refund in respect of unexpired licences, provided that it is fully costed so that no extra expense is put on public funds?

Mr. Rees

I have examined that suggestion once or twice in the past three or four years. However, the extra cost involved, given the necessary computerisation, is large. Such a suggestion may look attractive when seen from outside, but the imposition of substantial extra cost must be considered. I am prepared to show the hon. Gentleman the results of the investigations into this proposal.

Mr. Ashton

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the external services of the BBC already receive a grant-in-aid and that they are not told what to do by the Foreign Office? Furthermore, we do not tell the Arts Council or the Queen how to spend their money. If the will exists, this proposal can be implemented. Is my right hon. Friend aware that his announcement last week of a 20 per cent. increase in the television licence fee—far greater than the increase at Ford's—did not satisfy the BBC, the unions, the viewers or many Members of this House?

Mr. Rees

I think that the BBC would have settled for a Ford-type increase over the past three years compared wth what it has received. My hon. Friend might like to see a scheme which has been carried out by the local authority in the city of Wakefield. It is an excellent scheme, and all our problems would be ended if local authorities carried out such schemes throughout the country.

Mr. Peter Walker

In regard to the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about preserving the freedom of the BBC, is that not a bogus idea when we consider that the BBC's application for an increase in the fee is rejected by the Government and is fixed at a different figure by the Government? Is he aware that there is resentment among many elderly people who recognise that some people in certain types of accommodation are given rebate when others in different types of accommodation are not, and especially when it is known that those who do not receive rebate are the loneliest people who are most in need of television? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider carefully the step he is taking?

Mr. Rees

I shall certainly consider the right hon. Gentleman's comments. I hope that he has taken into account what about 65 local authorities are doing already. I cannot accept that the argument is bogus. It may be one with which the right hon. Gentleman disagrees. I disagree with him about the nature of the silly local government reform which he carried out. But I do not regard that as bogus—I just regard it as daft.

Mr. Ashley

My right hon. Friend should consider making statutory provision to help old-age pensioners and people on low incomes with their licence fees, but does he agree that the licence fee is vital if the BBC is to remain independent? Is he aware that if a Government, of whatever political complexion, sought to exercise control over, or undue influence upon, the BBC we should be well on the way to the totalitarian State? Does my right hon. Friend further agree that we must maintain the freedom of the BBC and the broadcasting authorities generally from any form of Government influence?

Mr. Rees

I do not regard my hon. Friend's argument as bogus. I accept that many people disagree with him.

Mr. Whitelaw

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there are many people who would agree with the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley), not least the Annan committee, which made it perfectly clear that the licence fee was the best method of financing the BBC? Does not the right hon. Gentleman accept that any system which in any way removed the independence of the BBC would be extremely dangerous for the whole of the operations of the BBC?

Mr. Rees

It is dangerous. I believe that the scheme operated by some local authorities would deal with the problem about which many of us are concerned.