§ Q3. Mrs. Haymanasked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 30th November.
§ The Prime MinisterThis morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
§ Mrs. HaymanWill my right hon. Friend try to find time today to study the question of the declining trend in this country's perinatal mortality rates over the past 25 years in relation to other European nations? Will he look at what can be done to reverse this 694 disturbing trend, particularly in relation to improving neo-natal services within the National Health Service?
§ The Prime MinisterI am grateful to my hon. Friend for informing me of a matter in which she is particularly interested. The perinatal mortality rate has come down substantially in this country. It varies against the rate in a number of European countries. It is higher than some but lower than others. The Minister could give my hon. Friend a table if she wished to see it.
The most worrying factor is the discrepancy between the regions of this country. Mortality seems to be highest in the areas of great industrial conurbations and lowest in the more rural areas. This undoubtedly reflects differences in the environment, and it is to that, as well as to diet and other matters, that we must pay attention.
§ Mr. Michael LathamReverting to the question of sanctions and Ford's, will the Prime Minister explain why it was, in the words of Ministers, not appropriate to have sanctions on Ford 12 months ago, whereas it is appropriate now? Could it be related to the Bridgend factory?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir. The hon. Gentleman knows that that is a smear that is hardly worthy of him. But I suppose the real answer must be that the reason we started on it this year is that we were converted by the complaints of the Opposition last year that we had not taken action against Ford's.
§ Mr. PavittReverting to the question of perinatal mortality, will my right hon. Friend seek to co-ordinate the efforts in the inner city areas and the efforts of the Department of Health and Social Services in areas where there are large ethnic minorities, in order to assist what is now being done concerning languages to help the mothers concerned?
§ The Prime MinisterMy right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services has sent to the regional chairmen of the health authorities details of the perinatal mortality rates in their areas. He has asked them to continue to look at these matters with a view to putting forward specific policies for improvement in the areas which are worst affected. This is a serious issue. We are not doing 695 as well as some other countries, although we have had a substantial improvement. We should certainly ask the health authorities to make this a priority matter.
§ Mr. WattWill one of the ministerial colleagues that the Prime Minister says he will be meeting today be the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? If so, will the Prime Minister assure that gentleman that he is firmly behind him in his stand to make sure that the fishermen get a decent deal from the EEC?
§ The Prime MinisterYes. I fortunately met my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food at the Cabinet meeting this morning. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Minister is in good and rude health.
§ Dr. M. S. MillerReverting once again to the question of perinatal mortality rates, will the Prime Minister be very chary about accepting statistics in this respect? We in this country are very accurate in the statistics that we put forward, and other countries might not be making comparisons on exactly the same basis as ourselves.
§ The Prime MinisterThis is one of the things that I was warned about. I was informed that the league table approach to national performance is somewhat misleading. But at least it is a guide. I think that the best guide for us, for which we can at least claim some credit, is that since the introduction of the Health Service in 1948—and all our statistics are prepared on the same basis—the number of deaths per 1,000 live and still births has gone down from 38.5 per 1,000 to 17 per 1,000. That is a tribute to the work of the Health Service.
§ Mr. ChurchillThe Prime Minister has spoken of the importance of productivity deals. Will he say what steps he and his Administration are taking to monitor existing productivity deals, and in particular in the case of the miners? As the Prime Minister well knows, this year the miners received a 36.5 per cent. pay increase. Will he explain what action he proposes to take in the light of the fact that less than one-tenth of that sum has been earned in increased productivity?
§ The Prime MinisterI do not propose to go into this matter myself. If the hon. Gentleman has any questions to put to my 696 right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy, no doubt he will do so. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not pursue the vendetta of his family against the miners—[Interruption.]—at Tonypandy for the third generation.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Mr. Noble.—[Interruption.] Order. Mr. Mike Noble, next Question.
§ Mr. ChurchillOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Will the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) wait until after Questions? [Interruption.] Order. It will not be long. We shall return to it after Questions. Mr. Mike Noble—next Question.
§ The Prime Ministerrose—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Churchill rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have already said that the hon. Member for Stretford will have an opportunity to raise a point of order after Questions. The Prime Minister.
§ The Prime Minister rose[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Even when hon. Members feel indignant, they must—[HON. MEMBERS:"Dishonourable."] Order. We must try to keep to the rules of order. The Prime Minister will answer this Question and then we shall have points of order after the supplementary question. [Interruption.] Order. It is impossible to conduct our affairs if hon. Members do not listen to the Chair when I make a request. We shall come back to that matter shortly.
§ Later—
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. Winston Churchill, to raise a point of order.
§ Mr. ChurchillMr. Speaker, would it be in order for the Prime Minister to withdraw his wholly false smear accusation against my late grandfather, whose vendetta was against not the miners, but the Nazis?
§ Mr. SpeakerBusiness Question. Mrs. Thatcher.
§ Mr. WhitelawFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think, on reflection, that it would be sensible and wise to withdraw a cheap and totally unnecessary slur?
§ The Prime MinisterThe actions of the late Sir Winston Churchill in Tonypandy are a matter of historical dispute. I take one side of the quarrel. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman takes another side of that quarrel. I can only tell him what we in South Wales feel about the actions that were taken on that occasion.
I hope that the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) will not pursue a vendetta against the miners.
§ Mr. BrittanThat was not what you said.
§ The Prime MinisterThe hon. and learned Gentleman is right. That was not what I said. The hon. Gentleman knows very well what I said. I am asking the hon. Gentleman not to pursue a vendetta against the miners of South Wales or anywhere else, and by the nature of his questions he appears to be doing so.
§ Mr. ChurchillFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister is seeking to advance a hoary old chestnut of Socialism by suggesting that the late Sir Winston Churchill sent troops to Tonypandy when the right hon. Gentleman should very well know that it was Sir Winston Churchill who detrained them at Didcot and sent instead policemen from the Metropolis. It was completely unjustifiable for the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that the late Sir Winston Churchill sent troops, which was the implication behind his remarks.
§ Mr. Kinnock rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I am not taking any further points of order on that matter. The hon. Member for Stretford has had the last word.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. If those who seek to raise points of order after I have 698 already said that I do not propose to take further points of order on this matter feel that they can be helpful and not stir up trouble—[Interruption.] Order. I know that it is a matter of judgment. I do not want us to have a slanging match without coming to any conclusion.
§ Mr. KinnockOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member for Stretford made his reply to the Prime Minister. I do not know whether the Prime Minister wishes to say anything more. I shall call him if he does.
§ Mr. KinnockOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. WhitelawOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerPoint of order, Mr. Whitelaw.
§ Mr. WhitelawI hope that this will be a helpful point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have heard it said before, and the Prime Minister will have heard it said, that slurs on people who are dead are not advisable in the House. That has frequently been said before. Does the Prime Minister agree that a slur of this nature on someone who is dead is unfortunate and that he should realise it and not go on with it?
§ The Prime MinisterIf I had thought that the remark was untruthful, I would not have made it. The record of the late Sir Winston Churchill in that dispute is a matter which is and continues to be deeply felt in South Wales. [Interruption.] There is no need for Opposition Members to try to make up to the hon. Member for Stretford for having voted against him in the defence committee.
As regards Sir Winston Churchill's record, there is no need for me to add any words to what I am known to feel about him or his services to the country. That is well known. I have said it myself on previous occasions and I have no hesitation in saying it again. However, there is a particular issue here which is unresolved at the bar of history, even now.
Mr. HefterOn a further point of order, Mr. Speaker. Obviously you wish us to be helpful. I assure you that I wish 699 to be nothing but helpful. This is an entirely different point of order, but it is true to say that it may arise out of circumstances that we have just witnessed.
After my right hon. Friend had made a statement and there had also been a statement by the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill), a great baying noise came from the Opposition and you, Mr. Speaker, drew this fact to the attention of Labour Members. I found that very strange indeed.
I ask that in future you ask the 73 per cent. of public schoolboys on the Opposition side of the House to behave not like street corner boys but to behave —[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. This is an unexpected contribution. The House should listen to the hon. Member.
Mr. HellerI should like Opposition Members to behave—I shall finish on this point, Mr. Speaker—on the basis of the type of education that they have received.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. Kinnock rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerDoes the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) also want to be helpful? He nods his head. I shall make an act of faith.
§ Mr. KinnockAs long as you do not expect me, Mr. Speaker, to make an act of contrition. I wish to say, on an entirely helpful point of order, how much I admire your great dispassion, Mr. Speaker, as I know that you come from Tonypandy. Secondy, there have been certain inaccuracies perpetrated, and as the House must make a judgment on these things—as, indeed, you do, Mr. Speaker—it might be as well to correct one or two misapprehensions.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. That is the point at which the hon. Gentleman ceases to be helpful.
§ Mr. Kinnock rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman can rise only to a further point of order. We do not want a recital of history—from anyone.
§ Mr. KinnockI fully appreciate that, Mr. Speaker—except that we have had one version of history this afternoon.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Our trouble is that we have had two versions.
§ Mr. Rhodes JamesFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. KinnockOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I gave the hon. Gentleman a fair chance. The House is waiting to move on to a very important debate. I call the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Rhodes James). I hope that he will be helpful as well.
§ Mr. Rhodes JamesFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The events of 1910 and 1911 are indeed a matter of controversy, but I hope that this House and you, Mr. Speaker, will recognise that the actions taken by the then Home Secretary—[HON. MEMBERS:"Oh."]—were matters of great restraint. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. This is pursuing the argument.
I suggest to the House that we leave the matter. I never thought that the day would come when a pupil of Tonypandy grammar school would have the last word between both sides of this place on such a matter. I believe that it is to the mutual advantage of this House to leave the matter there.