HC Deb 29 November 1978 vol 959 cc425-7
13. Mr. Canavan

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has had about a national scheme of concessionary fares for retirement pensioners and the disabled.

Mr. William Rodgers

A great many.

Mr. Canavan

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a national disgrace that local authorities fail to take up £20 million of Government assistance which is available to subsidise transport costs, and that the worst offenders in this respect are Tory-controlled councils? In view of this, and in view also of the disparities which exist between the various local authority schemes, will the Government introduce a national scheme of free travel for pensioners and the disabled?

Mr. Rodgers

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. It is a local disgrace that a number of authorities do not provide schemes of any kind for old people and the disabled. It is quite wrong, and there is no need for it. As my hon. Friend said, we made clear more than a year ago that resources were available under the rate support grant system.

To move to a national scheme of free fares would cost more than £200 million, on the best estimate. It is difficult to see an immediate priority for that. But I am looking at the possibility of some form of national concessionary fares scheme, because I agree very much about the need for transferability. It should be possible for pensioners to visit their children and grandchildren wherever they may be and obtain the same benefits as they have for travelling in their own localities.

Mr. Donald Stewart

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in a recent debate on a Private Member's motion, there was support from both sides of the House for a national scheme for concessionary fares for pensioners and the disabled? Is he also aware that, contrary to the estimate that he has just given, the opinion was that such a concession, far from costing the nationalised industries money, would generate new traffic as a result of pensioners and the disabled taking up seats on buses, trains and boats which otherwise would be empty?

Mr. Rodgers

I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman that if pensioners travelled free, although they would generate new traffic, they would also generate additional costs. For that reason, it is difficult to see the prospect of free fares for all without a substantial additional sum being involved. I recognise the feeling on both sides of the House. This is a genuine social problem. My deep regret is that in the meantime some councils have failed to take up the opportunities open to them. That is deplorable.

Mr. Ron Thomas

Will my right hon. Friend accept that all Government supporters see the Tory councils which have acted in this indefensible way as once again attacking the elderly and those least able to look after themselves? The National Association of Old-Age Pensioners would welcome a scheme which was applicable right across the country. I am encouraged by what my right hon. Friend has said today.

Mr. Rodgers

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that.

Mr. Moate

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that his January circular and his subsequent condemnation of some councils have served only to give a misleading impression? Will he make clear that local authorities will still have to bear nearly 40 per cent. of the cost of concessionary fare schemes, at a time when the Government are urging local authorities to keep down rates at least to the level of inflation and at the same time are penalising many of the shire counties which he is now criticising, by means of the distribution of resources?

Mr. Rodgers

I agree that under the present financial arrangements local authorities have to find some money to contribute towards concessionary fares schemes. But I think that this is a test of meanness, because some of them do and some of them do not. If the hon. Gentleman suggests that this information is not available, I shall publish in Hansard at the earliest possible date a list of all those local authorities which are failing to provide schemes of any kind.

Mr. Farr

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to give notice that, in view of the Minister's unsatisfactory answers, I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.