HC Deb 27 November 1978 vol 959 cc28-9

52. Mr. Canavan asked the hon. Member for Kingswood (Mr. Walker), as representing the Church Commissioners, what is the attitude of the Church Commissioners to a maximum 5 per cent salary increase for the clergy.

The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Mr. Terry Walker)

The Church Commissioners would regard a maximum 5 per cent. stipend increase for the clergy in 1979 as altogether inadequate since clergy stipends are currently up to £1,000 per annum—or 30 per cent.—below what, on any reasonable assessment, they ought to be.

Mr. Canavan

Will my hon. Friend tell the Church Commissioners that many of us think that the clergy, especially those on low pay, fully deserve the reported increases of pay of up to 20 per cent.? Is he aware that we believe that the Government as an employer ought to follow the good example of the Church in this matter by arranging for similar increases for low-paid workers in the public sector, instead of handing out massive 40 per cent. increases for overpaid people such as judges, admirals, Army officers, top officials and chairmen of the nationalised industries?

Mr. Walker

What my hon. Friend must bear in mind is that the increases proposed for the clergy in 1979 will be financed mainly from voluntary giving and cannot give rise to price increases.

Mr. Stokes

Is the hon. Member aware that the clergy should not be treated as a salaried bureaucracy? Does he agree that all of this paraphernalia about the 5 per cent. is quite unsuited, and damaging, to the parson's freehold?

Mr. Walker

The recommended national minimum stipend in 1979 for clergymen of incumbent status is £3,300. The dioceses have been urged, if it is at all possible, to establish a minimum of between £3,500 and £3,800.

Mr. Arthur Latham

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that some recent rent increases of 120 per cent. are in no way voluntary? Will he venture a view about whether those increases are more in conflict with the Government's 5 per cent. policy or the principles of Christian teaching? Would he care to suggest what sanctions might effectively be taken against the Church Commissioners, by the Government or the Almighty, to curb their avarice?

Mr. Walker

I can only reiterate that the whole of the increases will be financed by voluntary giving, and that they cannot give rise to inflation.