HC Deb 17 May 1978 vol 950 cc726-30
Mr. William Rodgers

I beg to move Amendment No. 41, in page 12, line 9, at end insert— (5) It shall be within the powers of the British Railways Board—

  1. (a) where it appears to them expedient with a view only to achieving the more productive use of road vehicles predominantly used for the carriage of containers which have been or are to be carried by rail, to use such vehicles for any carriage of containers; and
  2. (b) where they have entered into a contract for the carriage of containers or goods in containers (with or without provisions in the contract specifying whether the carriage is to be by road or by rail), and the contract is to be performed predominantly by rail carriage, to use any road vehicles in partial discharge of their obligations under the contract;
and 'containers' means high capacity containers of a kind capable of being carried by freightliner rail vehicles. (6) The annual report made by the Board under section 4 of the Railways Act 1974 shall include, in addition to the matters there mentioned, such information about the Board's exercise of their powers under subsection (5) above as may be called for by the Secretary of State.". Those who were members of the Committee will recall our discussion about the means by which the transfer of Freightliners from the National Freight Corporation to British Rail could be best effected. A proposal was made that we should amend the Bill in a way that we believed would satisfy the conditions. It met with considerable opposition because it was felt that the amendment as proposed would lead British Rail into entering into the general road haulage business to the detriment of other hauliers.

At the time I announced the transfer of Freightliners to British Railways, I made clear that I thought it should have as much opportunity, but neither more nor less, to function effectively within British Rail as it had within the NFC. In other words, there should be no greater powers for British Rail than there were for the NFC during the period when Freightliners has lodged with it. The amendment moved in Committee was designed to ensure that that would be the case. However, that amendment met with some opposition, and since the Committee stage I have been seeking a way of resolving the difficulties. As a result, I have tabled the amendment.

All that I would say about the amendment's acceptability to the main protagonists, the British Railways Board and the National Freight Corporation, is that I think it can be said that both the Board and the NFC feel that the amendment is an adequate means of ensuring that the original purpose in transferring Freightliners to British Rail has been satisfied. I hope very much that the House will take the same view.

The first part of the amendment deals with what might be called the matters of substance. Subsection (6) says that I could exercise further powers to ensure that The annual report made by the Board under section 4 of the Railways Act 1974 shall include …. such information about the Board's exercise of their powers under subsection (5) as I may call for. In other words, this is an additional safeguard which I could exercise if I had any doubts about how matters were proceeding. If in future it appeared to me that excessive use of the powers was being made by the British Railways Board, I would be able to direct it under Section 27 of the 1962 Act to cease such activity.

I believe that we have found a formula which meets the Committee's anxieties, as I believe it has met the anxieties of both the railways and the road haulage industry which were expressed in Committee and since.

Mr. John Ellis

It is true that my right hon. Friend agreed after some debate in Committee to look at the matter again and consult the private sector, the trade union side and so on. That was done, with beneficial results.

I must be careful what I say, or the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Fry) will again insult me by saying that I take instructions. The Transport and General Workers' Union is a responsible organisation. I always find it instructive to talk to my colleagues, people with vast experience. I take into account what I am told. I do not take instructions, but I find the information I receive at the union of great use to me in determining what should be my attitude on various matters. I know that the hon. Gentleman feels rather sore about what happened in the last debate, so I suppose that we must forgive him.

I hope that I have always looked at the question of transport not from a narrow point of view but from the point of view that there should be a role for the railways in the carriage of goods that are most suitable to go by that means. There is enough traffic on the roads anyway. Therefore, I have always been pleased to see developments such as Freightliners.

In certain ways I am less than enthusiastic about Freightliners going back to the railways, but that decision is taken and I hope that it will be a successful enterprise. As we have a nationalised sector on both sides, as far as I can see the concept is that we move goods by lorry down to the railway lines, move them quickly by freight train and take them off by lorry at the other end, with the nationalised sector of road transport, so to speak, doing orthodox freighting along routes which are all roads.

I do not think that there has ever been trouble in the past when difficulties arose. For example, if a line was washed out or there was trouble with a locomotive breaking down, in the past the attitude has been "There are certain difficulties. We must get these freight containers through", and they could go by lorry all the way.

The fear was that Freightliners would be set up as what one might call an orthodox trunking operation which would go into the business and appear as a company freighting by road all the way. The consultations have been held. I am glad to say that that fear has been dispelled in the terms expressed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State both earlier and since the consultations he has had on the present formulation. I do not think that there is any point between us now, and I thank him for the efforts he has made in that direction.

Mr. Fry

This is just another example showing how the Report stage is so much better than Second Reading. Those of us who were members of the Committee will remember that the Under-Secretary of State had the invidious task of presenting a set of amendments which he had either not seen or not been briefed upon, and on that occasion—I pay tribute to him—the hon. Member for Brigg and Scunthorpe (Mr. Ellis) weighed in with us, with the result that the Under-Secretary, after having been able to talk out one sitting, had second thoughts and withdrew the original proposals.

Some parts of the road haulage industry accept that the Secretary of State's assurances and the wording of the new amendment are reasonably satisfactory, but it would be wrong for the right hon. Gentleman to imagine that the whole of the industry is happy or feels that in all circumstances it can rely upon assurances.

I have no doubt that the Secretary of State means every word he said, but he may not be Secretary of State in a few years' time and this legislation will be on the statute book. I have no doubt that Mr. Peter Parker, who endorses this wording and those assurances, means everything he said, but Mr. Parker may not be chairman of British Rail in the future.

We must direct our attention not merely to assurances given but to the law we are asked to pass. Therefore, while not formally opposing the amendment, I must tell the Secretary of State that we and the haulage industry will watch matters closely, because the part of the amendment which causes concern is the phrase to use such vehicles for any carriage of containers. That phrasing would enable British Rail to compete quite considerably with road haulage interests.

However, with those reservations, and accepting the right hon. Gentleman's assurances in the spirit in which he gave them, I shall at this stage say no more.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

We come now to several amendments to be moved formally. If there is no objection, I shall put them together.

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