AGREEMENTS WITH OPERATORS (Hansard, 17 May 1978)

§ Mr. Gow
I beg to move Amendment No. 19, in page 4, line 29, leave out 'shall' and insert 'may'.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton)
With this we may also discuss Government Amendments Nos. 20 to 23, and 25. We may also discuss Amendment No. 24, in page 4, line 43, leave out subsection (3).

§ Mr. Gow
Clause 3(1) lays an unspecified duty on non-metropolitan county councils to enter into agreements with persons carrying on public passenger 698 transport undertakings. It is wrong that there should be a compulsory obligation laid upon county councils. That duty should be permissive in Clause 3(1) as in Clause 3(2). I do not understand how it is possible to lay an unspecified obligation on a non-metropolitan county council to enter into agreements.
What would happen if a county council decided not to enter into an agreement? The county council might well be able to carry out all the duties laid upon it under subsections (1) and (2) without entering into any of the agreements that are specified in Clause 3(1).
I am sure that when the Under-Secretary of State replies he will agree that it may be possible for a county council to fulfil all its duties without entering into any of the agreements that are specified in Clause 3(1). The purpose of the amendment is to make sense of the clause. I do not know what would happen if a non-metropolitan county council, having carried out all its other duties under Clauses 1 and 2, found it was able to carry out its duties without entering into such an agreement as is specified in subsection (1). There is no point in making it obligatory in subsection (1) but not in subsection (2).
The amendment is intended as a drafting provision. Surely the Government must agree that it was their intention that the provisions of the two subsections should be the same.

§ Mr. Horam
I understand the argument of the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow), which he advanced in Committee. However, we must place an onus on county councils to conclude agreements of this sort. To make the duty entirely permissive, which the change from "shall" to "may" would do, would be to take any point out of the area of responsibility that we are placing with county councils. If they are to have agreements for establishing public transport plans, they must have some financial under-pinning. They must have an arrangement with the operator which gives the operator some sort of guarantee. If the duty is made entirely permissive, that would obviously come about less often than we think right.
The hon. Gentleman did not speak on Amendment No. 24—

§ Mr. Gow
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Are we also considering Amendment No. 24?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
We are considering Government Amendments Nos. 20 to 23 inclusive, Amendment No. 24 and Government Amendment No. 25.

§ Mr. Horam
It may be that I anticipate the hon. Gentleman's arguments. I apologise for speaking inadvertently ahead of him. To reduce the agreement from three years to one year would, if taken together with his other amendment, reduce the content of the clause to almost nothing. The point about these agreements—we have been over the ground—is that the operators have made the point that they need some sort of financial guarantee if they are to plan properly.
I think that what we agreed in Committee makes sense, in terms of both the technical provisions in the Bill and the practical financial arrangements on the ground floor. They should stick together. I therefore reject the hon. Member's amendments.
However, I am sure that the hon. Member will be aware that we took on board some of the points made by the Opposition in the debate on this part of the Bill. The cluster of amendments, Nos. 20, 21, 22, 23 and 25, in fact meets a point that was made very strongly by the Opposition—that it was unreal to divorce the agreement from the finance, since that was the underlying purpose of the agreement. I agreed to consider that point on Report. The point made on that matter by the Opposition is very reasonable. By including a reference to financial support in paragraph (a), it is possible to leave out paragraph (b) without altering the effect of the subsection.
I think that we have gone some way to meet the legitimate points made by the Opposition on this question. I am sorry that we cannot go any further, but we feel that to alter the Bill any further in this direction would make it so permissive as to be almost meaningless.

§ Mr. Gow
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

§ Mr. Horam
I beg to move Amendment No. 26, in page 5, line 25, leave out from beginning to 'but' in line 26 and insert the council giving, and complying with, such written undertakings of confidentiality as may be requested by those persons as a condition of the information being furnished".

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this we may take Amendment No. 27, in page 5, line 29, at end insert— (7) Where any of the persons specified in section 1(4) above is required to provide information as set out in subsection (5) above the county council shall repay to such person the amount of the cost of providing that information and if the amount is not agreed within three months of the date on which the infromation was supplied to the county council the amount shall be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed in default of agreement by the President for the time being of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy.".

§ Mr. Horam
Amendment No. 26 is also something that we have accepted from the Opposition. I think that they will remember the reasoning behind it. The hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) raised the point. It concerns the question of confidentiality. On reflection, I think that the way in which we have rephrased the clause meets the point that the Opposition made in Committee.

§ Mr. Younger
I am grateful to the Minister for meeting the point that I raised in Committee. There is no doubt that this will be helpful as it will give the assurance to people who have to produce information which they may regard as confidential that if they specifically ask for it to be confidential they will be sure that it will be regarded and dealt with as such.