HC Deb 16 May 1978 vol 950 cc230-2
13. Mr. Grocott

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will take steps to provide for equality of educational opportunity by incorporating the public schools into the comprehensive system.

Miss Margaret Jackson

As I told my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, North (Mr. Davies) on 18th April, my right hon. Friend has at present no plans to do so but remains firmly committed to the long-term aim in our manifesto of phasing out fee paying in schools.

Mr. Grocott

Since 62 out of the 74 High Court judges and the overwhelming majority of leading industrialists, civil servants, diplomats, newspaper men and military men—not to mention 211 out of 282 Tory Members of Parliament—are public school-educated, is it not high time that we scrapped the system and gave all our children an equal chance?

Miss Jackson

I accept what I am sure is my hon. Friend's underlying contention—that the quality of all these gentlemen would be greatly improved had they attended comprehensive schools.

Mr. Stokes

Is the Minister aware that the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tam-worth (Mr. Grocott) wants to abolish everything which is good in England? Is she further aware that what the country needs is the spirit of leadership and service which the public schools so amply provide?

Miss Jackson

I had no idea that my hon. Friend's ambitions were so widespread. I certainly accept that the country needs leadership and service. That is what it is getting and will always get from this party.

Miss Joan Lestor

Will my hon. Friend convey to her right hon. Friend that, whatever the difficulties may be about the integration of public schools into the State sector, there is a real anomaly in relation to the registration as charities of schools such as Eton College and others in my constituency? Will she therefore do something about the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who seems very reluctant to take any action in relation to this question?

Miss Jackson

I do not accept that my right hon. Friend is reluctant to take action, but I believe that the difficulties are more substantial than one would at first imagine.

Mr. Adley

Is the Minister not aware that many thousands of parents, including, for example, myself, are nearly bankrupting themselves in order to take advantage of the United Nations Charter and provide the education of their choice for their children? Is it not a fact that people do this because they believe that there are advantages to be gained for their families? If the Minister and her right hon. and hon. Friends are interested in good education, would they not seriously be better employed in trying to understand what it is about the public schools that provides the sort of education that appears to be so advantageous, according to her hon. Friend the Member for Lich-field and Tamworth (Mr. Grocott), and trying to learn from them rather than trying to abolish them?

Miss Jackson

I accept that there are many parents who mistakenly believe that by paying extra money for their children's education they will automatically give them a better standard of education. However, the questions of monetary difficulties and salaries of Members of Parliament are not for me.

Miss Maynard

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is high time that this became a short-term rather than a long-term objective? Is it not really a question of political will and a real desire to incorporate these private schools into the comprehensive system?

Miss Jackson

Unfortunately, it is not as simple as a matter of political will. We have taken many steps in that direction—for example, by reducing the number of places that local education authorities have previously taken up in the independent sector. We are making progress.

Dr. Boyson

Does the Minister agree that it is part of a free society that people are allowed to dispose of their remaining income as they wish after they have paid their dues to the State? Would not a desire for a proper education for their children be part of that? Would there be any moral claim on a State which outlawed three things—hard drugs, hard pornography and private education?

Miss Jackson

I do not understand the hon. Gentleman. Do I take it that he is saying that hard drugs, hard pornography and private schools are all equally desirable?