HC Deb 04 May 1978 vol 949 cc427-9
5. Mr. Greville Janner

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many men and boys were in 1977 sentenced to attend at attendance centres on Saturday afternoons; and how many of them were sentenced for football ground offences.

Mr. John

Figures for 1977 are not yet available. In 1976, 9,467 male offenders under the age of 21 were ordered to attend at an attendance centre. It is not possible to say how many were ordered to attend on Saturday afternoons, although the majority would have been, or how many were sentenced because of offences committed in connection with football matches.

Mr. Janner

Does my hon. Friend agree with the statement made by the Deputy Chief Constable of Leicestershire after the disgraceful incidents following the Leicester v. Newcastle match on Saturday that fines are no longer any deterrent to football hooligans, payable as they are by a whip-round at the Kop? Does he not feel that the right answer is to send all convicted football hooligans to an attendance centre every Saturday for a year, so as to keep them away from the matches where they disturb other people's enjoyment?

Mr. John

There are a number of easy assumptions in that supplementary question which must be challenged. First, it is at least arguable that to confine attendance centres to football hooligans robs magistrates of a very useful place for many other offenders.

Mr. Janner

I spoke about Saturday afternoons.

Mr. John

Secondly, it increases the risk of absenteeism and consequent distraction of the staff at the centres in trying to trace absentees. Thirdly, my hon. and learned Friend will surely have heard about mid-week football matches. What happens then?

Mr. Sims

Is the Minister aware that the decision to extend certain junior attendance centres for the older age group has been warmly welcomed by the magistracy and many in the House who feel that the most effective way of dealing with football hooligans is to take them out of circulation on a Saturday afternoon? Is he also aware that the two existing senior attendance centres, which were set up as an experiment about 20 years ago, received very little attention from the Home Office until recently? Will he assure us that he will keep a careful watch on the experimental opening of the junior attendance centres and that if they prove satisfactory he will not wait until the end of the three-year experimental period but will extend the system as soon as possible?

Mr. John

One of the purposes of setting up the centres and extending them in age group is to record not only the number of orders made but the type of offence involved. Let us see whether the magistrates are using them for football hooliganism or what they are using them for. Let us consider whether the rate of absenteeism is still acceptable and whether the putting of older people with the younger boys in the same centre is unduly disruptive of the regime and leads to a larger turnover of staff. Those matters will be essential parts of the experiment. If the experiment is successful, we shall consider its extension.

Mr. Alan Clark

Make them come here to listen to devolution debates.

Mr. Monro

When will the Government take a much tougher line about football hooliganism? Has the Minister seen a difference in sentencing policy since the introduction of the Criminal Law Act last year? Will the Government cease to hide behind various committees—under himself or the Minister responsible for sport—which never produce any action? Can we have action now?

Mr. John

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, whose rare excursion into Home Office Questions is welcome, will realise that the Criminal Law Act has been put on the statute book and that penalties for the offence that he calls football hooliganism, although there is not a specific offence of that nature, have been increased greatly.

I have constantly said—this has sometimes been accepted by Conservative Members but not when cheap popularity is indicated—that it is our duty as a House of Commons to give magistrates adequate penalties at their disposal. It is for them to impose those penalties. There is no reason why we should depart from that procedure.