§ 3.31 p.m.
§ Mr. Robert Adley (Christchurch and Lymington)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prevent a registered trade union from expelling a member from membership of the union for political reasons.I have been in the House for nearly eight years, and this is the first time that I have presented a Ten-Minute Bill. Recent moves by three separate unions in different circumstances have caused me to take this step.In an industry with a closed shop, if union membership is removed from someone for political reasons, that person is automatically deprived of his or her employment. I believe this to be unacceptable and I have support for that view from no less a person than the Prime Minister. In answer to a Question from me on 4th April, he said:
I make it clear to the hon. Gentleman and to the House that I would deplore utterly, and would not find it at all acceptable, that people should be dismissed from their employment because of their political views, however objectionable they may be."—[Official Report, 4th April 1978; Vol. 947, c. 234.]The election yesterday of Mr. Duffy on a secret postal ballot justifies one proposal which my party believes should be encouraged, if necessary by legislation—allowing the State to fund postal ballots for trade unions. I believe that my modest proposal today is another small attempt to seek a change which is needed and which would be supported by most active trade unionists.If the Bill is opposed today, no doubt we shall hear howls from Labour Members below the Gangway about "union-bashing", "Grunwick", "George Ward" and "confrontation". None of those things is in my Bill. It relates instead to three specific events which have caused me concern.
The first is the case of the National Union of Railwaymen and the National Front. I believe that the National Front is an obnoxious organisation, but so long as it is legal, it is legal. The attempt to expel members from the NUR for their active support of the National Front is as bad—[Interruption.] I seek your protection, Mr. Speaker, to allow me to proceed with my speech.
237 I believe that the idea of expelling people from the NUR and therefore from their jobs solely for participation in politics, however obnoxious, is itself an obnoxious act. People would be deprived of their livelihood on the railways and if they were members of, say, the NUR, they might find it difficult ever to get another job.
I have support for this view from no less a person than the Secretary of State for Transport. When I raised the subject of political expulsions from the NUR, the right hon. Gentleman wrote to me on 11th April:
it is a dangerous principle for anyone to be dismissed from his employment because of his political views. This would be quite wrong.So at least two members of the Cabinet are on my side.I understand that British Rail's attitude is that it would not sack a person, even if he were expelled from the union, if he had been unreasonably excluded from the union. But no one can tell me who is to be the arbiter of what is unreasonable.
The second union which has indulged in political expulsion is the National Union of Journalists. Mr. Donny MacLeod of Pebble Mill has been kicked out of the NUJ. His crime in its eyes is "providing help and endorsement" to the D. C. Thomson publishing group of Dundee. He appeared in a television commercial for a company which the NUJ does not like—a company which produces such hot political publications as Beano and Hotspur.
There is as yet no closed shop in the BBC, so Mr. MacLeod is still able to work. However, I understand that if he had been employed by ITV, he would by now have found his employment jeopardised. Political expulsions of journalists, of course, amount to political censorship.
The third union is ASTMS. Here I must declare a personal interest, because Mr. Clive Jenkins is actively seeking to expel me and now a number of my parliamentary colleagues from his union. In a letter to me from the ASTMS head office on 13th April, the supervisor of the records department, a gentleman called Bill Kingston-Splatt—a name to make the Tolpuddle martyrs' blood 238 course quickly through their veins—wrote to me:
I also gather that you have been told by Mr. Jenkins that the Union does not wish to have you as a member anyway.The fact is that Mr. Jenkins has arrogated to himself his own opinion and proferred it on behalf of his entire membership.I wish to tell Obersturmbahnfuhrer Jenkins that ASTMS is not his property and that his wish to close down the London bank staff branch of ASTMS and therefore to deprive a number of my colleagues of union membership is a wholly unacceptable political decision taken supposedly in the name of democratic unionism. He may dislike my table manners or my choice of claret, although I suspect that he dislikes my politics. I think that he is behaving like the General Amin of the British trade union movement.
This attempt to expel people for political reasons should be challenged in the courts. People kicked out of their unions for political reasons can easily finish up as industrial gipsies, wandering around trying to find a job in some organisation which does not have a closed shop. If the closed shop goes on extending its tentacles throughout British industry, that could mean a serious situation for people who have offended the union leadership. Where do they stand under Bridlington?
Trade union affairs, like any other aspects of human endeavour, can give rise to grave misunderstandings when there is an abuse of power by the few which brings disrepute on the majority. I make clear my position—I am a supporter of democratic trade unionism, but some union leaders are, and know that they are, more powerful than the industrial barons of the past. Workers are often more frightened of offending their shop steward than of upsetting their boss.
Whereas a union should be a bastion of liberty, in many cases it is being used as a weapon of fear against individuals and their rights. The Bill seeks merely to control excesses or abuses of power. It is not designed to give rise to that overworked word "confrontation", which I suspect will be used more often in the next election by more Cabinet Ministers—including the Home Secretary, 239 Mr. Speaker, who is standing next to you—than any other word.
Political explusion is a threat to liberty. I have quoted the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Transport. Perhaps I may end by quoting some words written in the foreword to a book entitled "The Martyr of Tolpuddle" published in 1934. They were written by the then Chairman of the TUC, Andrew Conley. Referring to the Tolpuddle labourers, he said:
They would not be persuaded … into a betrayal of their principles nor coerced by the most vindictive punishment.I doubt that Mr. Conley could have foreseen that those words would be used in the defence of individual trade unionists against abuse of power by unions. I therefore hope that the NUR, the NUJ and ASTMS will take note that Parliament will not tolerate people being deprived of their rights or their jobs for their political views—however odd or nasty or sordid some may think those views to be.
§ 3.40 p.m.
§ Mr. Tom Litterick (Birmingham, Selly Oak)I wish that in referring to D. C. Thomson the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley) had extended his reading beyond the Dandy and Beano. If he had, he might understand rather more clearly why journalists are so hostile to the activities of the D. C. Thomson Press, reasons which go back, I think, as far as 40 years. The behaviour of that organisation is contrary to the spirit of existing law, but I do not expect the hon. Gentleman to understand that.
I think that we all support the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 4th April that no one should be dismissed from his or her job because of his or her political views. It is a simple proposition on which there should be unanimity.
I hope, too, but with less confidence, that the House will support the proposition that no one should be debarred from a job because of his political views. Conservative Members seem not to have heard of a thing called the black list, which is used widely throughout this country by employers, and has been used for generations. My own father was a vic- 240 tim of it several times during his working life. My family know about the black list. My family know about being disbarred from work because of one's political views. But I have never heard one Member of the Conservative Party complain about the use of black lists of that sort. The Conservatives' concern for individual rights is a wee bit partial, to say the least.
The hon. Gentleman's demand for legislation is pointless, because the Trades Union Congress has already set up an independent review body to deal with such cases, and for closed shop situations it has a legally qualified chairman, who has been appointed after consultation with the Secretary of State for Employment and with the chairman of ACAS.
In any case, there are common law rights on which individuals can rely and which the courts will and do enforce. The unions' rules books must be lawful and must conform to conventional notions of natural justice in their administration. Above all, it is for the members of each trade union to decide who shall be members of their union, what policies it will follow, and what behaviour they as members will accept as behaviour which is conducive to the achievement of the union's policies and is in the union's interests. At the same time, they can object to that type of behaviour which in their view damages the union's interests and the fulfilment of its stated purposes. That is their clear right as members of a voluntary association.
Should the railwaymen or the members of any other union adopt rules for administrative procedures which violate natural justice, the courts can be relied upon to provide a remedy, if all of the internal appeal procedures which exist within most British trade unions, and certainly within the TUC, are proved to be inadequate.
The House has already considered exhaustively, during the passage of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act, the question that is being raised this afternoon. The hon. Gentleman knows that very well.
Furthermore, in spite of the hon. Gentleman's quotation of the alleged case of the NUR, the House knows that he is aware of the statement made by the 241 union's general secretary to a Conservative gathering on 10th April. Mr. Weighell said:
Contrary to what the papers say, the intention is not to expel members from the union, or get them sacked, simply because they are misguided enough to become members of the National Front.What we want to tackle is their threat to industrial peace by spreading racialist literature, holding racialist meetings and acting contrary to the basic rules of the NUR. We have many hundreds of coloured workers in the railways working amicably with their fellow men and women.It seems that the hon. Gentleman wants those amicable relationships subverted. We might ask ourselves why. Mr. Weighell went on:If they—the racists—respect our rules and industrial practices and do nothing to harm our industry, they have nothing to fear, irrespective of what party they belong to and what their personal views are … There is no danger of anyone being deprived of his rights because he belongs to any particular political party. Members of the NUR, we consider, have the most democratic system of any trade union in the country.Those of us who know something about the trade union movement know that the basic principles of trade union administration in this country are democratic.So why has the hon. Gentleman raised the matter at all, given that he knows of all these things? It is clearly a simple attempt by an ignorant bigot—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. No one's argument is advanced by personal abuse. The hon. Gentleman must give his reasons for opposing the introduction of the Bill. Personal abuse is never part of our way of life. At least, I try for it not to be.
§ Mr. Nicholas Ridley (Cirencester and Tewkesbury)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is not customary to interrupt either speaker in a Ten-Minute Bill debate, so I shall take the point of order afterwards.
§ Mr. RidleyOn a point of order—
§ Mr. SpeakerI am not taking the point of order now. I will wait.
§ Mr. RidleyWith great respect—
§ Mr. SpeakerI warn the hon. Gentleman that unless he resumes his seat he will be forcing me into further action which I do not wish to take.
§ Mr. LitterickThank you, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)Do something decent for once.
§ Mr. LitterickHaving examined the hon. Gentleman's alleged arguments, I believe that it is quite legitimate for me to attempt to characterise the arguments he has put forward. It also seems to me quite legitimate at least to speculate out loud as to his motives. I suggest that they spring from a basic hostility towards trade unions.
§ Mr. LitterickAny stick that such people can use to beat the trade unions with will do, whether or not it approximates to the truth. They are not interested in the truth. Their concern for individual rights, which the hon. Gentleman alleges is the basis of his argument, is extremely biased, as they have never expressed any concern about the use of black lists by employers.
In other words, not only is the motion superfluous, for the reasons I have already given, but it is mischievous and tendentious, based on ignorance, and is pointless bigotry. Therefore, the House should oppose and reject the motion.
§ Mr. RidleyOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When I introduced a Ten-Minute Bill on 8th March you accepted a point of order that I had brought into the Chamber a Dispatch Box, and I of course naturally accepted your view that it would be right for the Dispatch Box to be removed from the Chamber.
I sought simply on this occasion to raise a point of order during the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Litterick) to the effect that his charging my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley) with being an ignorant bigot was unacceptable as parliamentary language.
243 All that I rose to seek, Mr. Speaker, was that you should ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the expression "ignorant bigot" as being unjustified and unparliamentary. I hope that you will now concede that I have a right to ask that you should do such a thing.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman is quite right to remind me of 8th March, when a point of order was raised about the Dispatch Box. It is normally our custom not to interrupt, but the hon. Gentleman is quite correct in drawing my attention to the fact that I allowed a point of order then. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, because he was quite right to bear in mind that he had been pulled up on a point of order, and any hon. Member is allowed to draw that to the attention of the Chair. I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts that apology.
Now to the language used by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Litterick). If we descend to that language, the reputation of this House will descend as well. I think that the hon. Member will be well advised to withdraw the words "ignorant bigot". He will be
§ acting in accordance with parliamentary standards if he will do so.
§ Mr. LitterickHaving proved beyond any doubt at all, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. Gentleman—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I am not asking for another speech. I am asking for the hon. Gentleman's co-operation in withdrawing a term that is offensive in the view of the whole House, I should imagine.
§ Mr. LitterickWhich word, Mr. Speaker—ignorant or bigot?
§ Mr. SpeakerIgnorant bigot. I am not addressing the hon. Gentleman. I am asking the hon. Gentleman to co-operate.
§ Mr. LitterickSo be it.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe House understands that that is a withdrawal.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and Nomination of Select Committees at Commencement of Public Business):
§ The House divided: Ayes 175, Noes 181.
245| Division No. 194] | AYES | [3.52 p.m. |
| Adley Robert | Eyre, Reginald | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Alison, Michael | Fairbairn, Nicholas | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Fairgrieve, Russell | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Farr, John | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Awdry, Daniel | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) |
| Banks, Robert | Forman, Nigel | Jessel, Toby |
| Beith, A. J. | Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Fox, Marcus | Jopling, Michael |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Kimball, Marcus |
| Blaker, Peter | Freud, Clement | King, Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Fry, Peter | Knox, David |
| Bottomley, Peter | Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. | Latham, Michael (Melton) |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) | Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Bradford, Rev Robert | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Luce, Richard |
| Brittan, Leon | Glyn, Dr Alan | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Brooke, Peter | Goodhart, Philip | MacGregor, John |
| Brotherton, Michael | Goodhew, victor | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Goodlad, Alastair | Marten, Neil |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Mates, Michael |
| Buck, Antony | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Mather, Carol |
| Budgen, Nick | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Mawby, Ray |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Gray, Hamish | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Burden, F. A. | Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Grist, Ian | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hamilton, Archibald (Epsom & Ewell) | Molyneaux, James |
| Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Monro, Hector |
| Clark, William (Croydon S) | Hampson, Dr Keith | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Corrie, John | Hannam, John | Moore, John (Croydon C) |
| Costain, A. P. | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) |
| Crouch, David | Hawkins, Paul | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford) | Hayhoe, Barney | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Hicks, Robert | Mudd, David |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Higgins, Terence L. | Neave, Airey |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Hodgson, Robin | Neubert, Michael |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Holland, Philip | Newton, Tony |
| Durant, Tony | Hooson, Emlyn | Nott, John |
| Dykes, Hugh | Hordern, Peter | Page, John (Harrow West) |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Page, Richard (Workington) | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| Pardoe, John | Scott-Hopkins, James | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Parkinson, Cecil | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Shepherd, Colin | Wakeham, John |
| Penhaligon, David | Shersby, Michael | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Silvester, Fred | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Price, David (Eastleigh) | Skeet, T. H. H. | Wall, Patrick |
| Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) | Walters, Dennis |
| Raison, Timothy | Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) | Speed, Keith | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Rhodes, James R. | Spence, John | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) | Whitney, Raymond (Wycombe) |
| Rifkind, Malcolm | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) | Sproat, Iain | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Stainton, Keith | Younger, Hon George |
| Ross, William (Londonderry) | Stokes, John | |
| Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Tapsell, Peter | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) | Tebbit, Norman | Mr. R. A. McCrindle and |
| Royle, Sir Anthony | Temple-Morris, Peter | Mr. Ivan Lawrence. |
| Sainsbury, Tim | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret | |
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank | Graham, Ted | Padley, Walter |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Ashley, Jack | Grant, John (Islington C) | Park, George |
| Ashton, Joe | Grocott, Bruce | Parker, John |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | Pendry, Tom |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Hardy, Peter | Phipps, Dr Colin |
| Bates, Alf | Harper, Joseph | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Hayman, Mrs Helene | Radice, Giles |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Hooley, Frank | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) |
| Bishop, Rt Hon Edward | Horam, John | Richardson, Miss Jo |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Huckfield, Les | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Hunter, Adam | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Buchanan, Richard | Jeger, Mrs Lena | Rowlands, Ted |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Ryman, John |
| Campbell, Ian | John, Brynmor | Sever, John |
| Cant, R. B. | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Cartwright, John | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Judd, Frank | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Kelley, Richard | Silverman, Julius |
| Coleman, Donald | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Kinnock, Neil | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Cowans, Harry | Lamborn, Harry | Stallard, A. W. |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Lamond, James | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Stoddart, David |
| Cryer, Bob | Leadbitter, Ted | Strang, Gavin |
| Dalyell, Tam | Litterick, Tom | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Davidson, Arthur | Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | McCartney, Hugh | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Thorne, Stan (Preston S) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | MacFarquhar, Roderick | Tilley, John (Lambeth, Central) |
| Deakins, Eric | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Tinn, James |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Maclennan, Robert | Tomlinson, John |
| Dempsey, James | McNamara, Kevin | Tuck, Raphael |
| Doig, Peter | Madden, Max | Urwin, T. W. |
| Dormand, J. D. | Magee, Bryan | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | |
| Eadie, Alex | Marks, Kenneth | Watkins, David |
| Edge, Geoff | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | White, James (Pollock) |
| English, Michael | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Whitehead, Philip |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Maynard, Miss Joan | Whitlock, William |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Meacher, Michael | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Mendelson, John | Willams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Flannery, Martin | Mikardo, Ian | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Mitchell, Austin | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Forrester, John | Molloy, William | Woodall, Alec |
| Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Morris, Rt Hon Charles R. | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | |
| Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Newens, Stanley | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| George, Bruce | Noble, Mike | Mr. Ron Lewis and |
| Golding, John | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Mr. Doug Hoyle. |
| Gould, Bryan | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
247§ Mr. Michael StewartOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can you help the House a little further with regard to the ruling which you gave just before the Division? If my memory serves me right, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Litterick) did not call the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley) "ignorant bigot". He said that the Bill was based on ignorance and bigotry. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, he did not."] I remember an occasion when the late Sir Winston Churchill accused Mr. Attlee's Government of tyranny, conceit and incompetence. Everyone knew that it was nonsense, but no one suggested that it was out of order.
May I submit, very respectfully, that if we are too nice in which words we may or may not use, our debates will lose a certain robustness? We all know that there is a polite parliamentary equivalent for the forbidden word "lie". Can you help us? What words do we use when we are talking about an hon. Member who is an ignorant bigot?
§ Mr. AdleyFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I perhaps save you embarrassment by saying that I would far rather be insulted than praised by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Litterick)?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe right hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Stewart) is one of the most senior Members of the House. He may have misheard the hon. Member for Selly Oak. He did not, what I call, 248 "attack a party". He said "an ignorant bigot". There is a world of difference between that and saying that the Opposition or Government party are this, that or the other. We have all heard it over the years.
I remind the House that the English language is a very rich language. I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman would be able to provide me with the necessary words if I gave him 10 minutes in the Library.