TUC (Hansard, 15 June 1978)

§ Q1. Mr. Mike Thomas
asked the Prime Minister when he last met the Trades Union Congress.

§ The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)
I met representatives of the TUC on 28th February. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.

§ Mr. Thomas
When my right hon. Friend next meets the TUC will he raise with it the question of industrial democracy? Will he draw to its attention the hypocrisy of the Leader of the Opposition in welcoming the proposals that my right hon. Friend put forward on 23rd May? Will he draw to the attention of the TUC the contrast between that bit of no doubt softened "Fairy Snow" image and the image portrayed by the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott), who on Tuesday said that the Conservatives would emasculate the Bullock proposals and oppose any legislation?

§ The Prime Minister
There will be discussions taking place between the TUC and appropriate Ministers on the White Paper that the Government have issued. I regret that the Opposition seem to be taking a more negative attitude now than they did when the White Paper was first published, especially as I have noticed that some independent observers have gone on record since the publication of the White Paper saying that they thought that it formed a useful basis. We think that voluntary arrangements should be made, as far as possible, with a legislative fall-back.

§ Mrs. Thatcher
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the TUC will be concerned at the threatened closure of the ICI plant on Teesside, with the possible loss of 8,000 jobs—this arising because the Company is not allowed to pay the kind of wages that would attract and keep skilled workers? Will the Prime Minister accept that his policy of depressed wages for skilled workers and high tax for all is leading directly to unemployment?

§ The Prime Minister
No, Sir, I will not accept anything of the sort. That is simply not true. The situation is that there has been a large increase in training for skilled men. I am glad to say that that has more than doubled since the right hon. Lady had any responsibility in the last Conservative Administration. We clearly need more training than we have. As to wage differentials, perhaps one day the right hon. Lady will recognise that there must be some reconciliation between overcoming inflation and a measure of holding back on wages. I do not know whether she accepts that. Perhaps she would like to make it clear.

§ Mrs. Thatcher
Will the Prime Minister now address his mind to the question? Eight thousand jobs may be lost because the company cannot pay enough to keep skilled workers and to attract more, yet there are training places vacant because the pay is not high enough to encourage people to take up these jobs. In the face of this loss, will the Prime Minister say whether the company can pay enough to keep skilled workers and attract more, or would the company be black listed if it did so?

§ The Prime Minister
I cannot reply to a question on an individual company. If the right hon. Lady wants a particular answer she should table a Question to the appropriate Minister. On the general question, I note that she is now departing from any proposals for having reasonable restraint on pay. In that case, I warn her that there will be a serious return to inflation. That is something that we have to balance. It is the responsibility of the Government—but, of course, not of the right hon. Lady—to try to get a proper balance between differentials and a restraint on pay. I sometimes wish that she would acknowledge that and recognise that this is a problem if inflation is to be kept down.

§ Mrs. Thatcher
Is the Prime Minister saying that he would rather have these workers unemployed than allow a flourishing, good company to make its own bargain with its own unions freely and without Government restraint?

§ The Prime Minister
No, of course I would not say anything of the sort, and the right hon. Lady understands that. What she will not acknowledge is that there is a relationship between the amount of wages paid and the level of inflation. It is the job of the Government to get this right, and we are getting it right. The right hon. Lady will no doubt pursue this point. We shall try in the next pay year to ensure that differentials have a rather better show than they have had this year. This year has been better than last year in that respect. But, overall, I should like to hear the right hon. Lady say one day that she regards the overcoming of inflation as the No. 1 priority of this country.