§ 22. Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement about the Government's intentions towards implementing the EEC directive on tachographs, in view of the action being taken by the European Court.
§ 30. Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the latest position on tachographs.
§ Mr. William RodgersI have nothing to add to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Scunthorpe (Mr. Ellis) on 24th May.
§ Mr. McNair-WilsonThe Secretary of State is soon to meet the European Court. Is he going to say that the wishes of Her Majesty's Government are to await the permission of the Transport and General Workers Union before this EEC directive is implemented? Is he aware that the Transport and General Workers Union is now insisting that even tachograph-fitted vehicles from the Continent shall be approved by it before operating in the West Midlands?
§ Mr. RodgersWe must see what the timetable for proceedings in the European Court may be. It has been made clear that we are to be referred to the Court, but I do not think that the reference has yet taken place. I have made 190 my position on this matter plain on a number of occasions. I am happy to see voluntary agreements for the use of the tachograph. It is wholly understood that the tachograph must be used for international journeys. The only question at issue is whether there should be compulsory fitting of the tachograph at home. I have also made my view clear on that aspect.
§ Mr. MartenHas the Secretary of State now found out the answer that he could not give me last time—namely, if we disobey the ruling of the European Court, who is imprisoned? Is it he?
On the question of tachographs, could he get a waiver for educational and youth minibuses carrying fewer than eight passengers for this summer so that they can go on tour on the Continent without tachographs?
§ Mr. RodgersOn the second point, I recognise that there have been problems. This is a totally different issue, because it is a question of the law of the land in other countries. If it is logical to argue that tachographs ought not to be compulsory here because the law of this Parliament should prevail in that respect, it is equally logical to recognise that the rules of other countries may be different. I have certainly made my view known about this issue. I am sorry if it causes hardship and inconvenience.
§ Mr. MaddenWhat increase in industrial costs and in the cost of living would flow from the full implementation of the EEC regulations on tachographs and drivers' hours?
§ Mr. RodgersIt is difficult to put both together. The assumption about the compulsory fitment of tachographs is that it would cost about £100 million overall, with recurring annual costs of about £40 million. What no one has been able to put a precise figure on is what resultant savings there might be in productivity. Certainly there would be a substantial initial cost. I should make it plain that it is a cost which many employers do not want to have imposed upon them.
§ Mr. FryI refer the Secretary of State to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson). I return to the question of the T and GWU in Birmingham, which, without any foundation in law, is interfering 191 in lawful trading operations. What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do about this matter? It is causing considerable dislocation to transport in the Midlands. Is it not time that he stood up to the union—or is he frightened of offending Mr. Alan Law and his bullies in the Midlands?
§ Mr. RodgersI am prepared to stand up to anybody whose blandishments, including those of the hon. Gentleman in this respect, I feel I must resist. If the law of the land is being broken, action should be taken in the courts. If it is not a question of the law of the land, we must recognise the real problems and resistance to the use of the tachograph, which are not simply based upon bloody-mindedness. We must hope to find a satisfactory and peaceful resolution of this matter in the end.
§ Mr. RookerWill my right hon. Friend tell the House why drivers, who are expected to live, eat and sleep in lorry cabs in the interests of big business, ought not to be consulted about any modification that goes into those cabs, whether it be in the shape of the seats or the mechanical instruments?
§ Mr. RodgersIt is right that there should be consultation. The issue is whether we are obliged to implement the tachograph directive in the United Kingdom under the Treaty of Accession, given that there was no renegotiation. Of course the lorry driver is entitled to a point of view on a matter of this kind.