HC Deb 07 June 1978 vol 951 cc177-9
6. Mr. Gow

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what discussion he has had with the chairman of the British Railways Board about the operation of the closed shop in British Railways.

Mr. William Rodgers

None, Sir.

Mr. Gow

Is it a matter of approval, indifference or regret to the Secretary of State that 42 former employees of British Rail, some of whom had more than 35 years' service, should have been dismissed without compensation? Does he agree with the Prime Minister's statement on 4th April that it would be wholly intolerable for a person to lose his job because of his political views?

Mr. Rodgers

I have always regretted it when people lose jobs that they would prefer to do. It is a harsh experience, which many people have shared over a period of years, for all sorts of reasons. I know the hon. Member's concern, and he has already indicated his anxiety to raise the matter on the Adjournment. Perhaps it can be discussed fully then.

Mr. Walter Johnson

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this decision was taken democratically by the unions concerned? It was a closed shop decision and the only people who are complaining about it are the very small minority who are too mean to pay their dues.

Mr. Rodgers

There are many things that could be added about the closed shop—for example, that it is increasing in the private sector and is widely regarded as one of the guarantees of good industrial relations. I recognise that there are special situations in the railways, but I think that on the whole the matter has been handled wisely and well.

Mr. Grimond

As British Rail has a monopoly, is it the Government's policy that anyone who does not wish to join a union should be denied employment?

Mr. Rodgers

It is not a question of Government policy; it is the existing position under legislation. Two of those people who have been affected in this way have indicated their intention to take the matter to the European Court. I am sure that these issues will continue to be discussed. They are not new issues in this House, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman knows.

Mr. Spriggs

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is not just a matter of one's political views, because it makes good sense to be a member of a trade union?

Mr. Rodgers

Yes, that is so. The complication is that, if a view were taken that because of political views a man should not remain a member of a union, there would be difficulties arising, in view of the closed shop.

Mr. Adley

Is the Secretary of State aware that on the Opposition Benches we believe in the freedom to belong to a trade union and in the freedom not to belong to a trade union? We believe that this freedom is indivisible. Does the Secretary of State share that view?

Mr. Rodgers

I am very glad to hear a plain assertion that it is the entitlement of every man to belong to a trade union, because that is not always the view that is expressed from the Conservative Benches. We have discussed these matters over many years, and the view is very substantiallly taken, not only by the trade unions but by some employers, that a closed shop can make good sense. All the evidence is that it makes good sense on the railways.