HC Deb 26 July 1978 vol 954 cc1539-41
7. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on negotiations for force reductions in Europe.

Mr. Judd

In response to the Western initiative in April, the Warsaw Pact direct participants in the negotiations on mutual and balanced force reductions tabled counter-proposals on 8th June. They represent the most significant Eastern move since the negotiations began, and we welcome the evident effort to meet some Western concerns. The proposals are complex, however, and require further clarification. Of the many issues which remain unresolved, the most notable is the fundamental question of the size of the forces to be reduced.

Mr. Allaun

Will the Minister press HMG—

Mr. Alan Clark

What is HMG?

Mr. Allman

Mind your own business.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I always do that.

Mr. Allaun

I apologise, Mr. Speaker, I intended no reflection on the Chair.

Will Her Majesty's Government press hard for agreement and not lose the breakthrough which occurred recently? In spite of the Russian offer to reduce its forces by more than the West, did not the NATO report of 19th July allege serious flaws? I want to know whether NATO really wants an agreement. I think that the British Government do, hut I am not so sure about NATO.

Mr. Judd

The British Government and, I believe, our NATO partners are determined to secure meaningful progress in the context of MBFR. Our view is that other measures for detente will be undermined if we cannot make progress on the military front. However, we want substantial, not illusory, progress. One of the biggest difficulties at the moment is the disparity in the calculations about the size of the forces on the two sides. That needs to be cleared up before we can make progress.

Sir Frederic Bennett

Since it is now suggested that the forces ranged against each other are not as was described in the Government's White Paper, which showed a heavy Russian preponderance in conventional arms and equipment over our own, is the Minister saying today that Her Majesty's Government stand by tae White Paper review of the situation? Or is he saying that they are beginning to doubt whether, as some Labour Members have said, the forces of the Soviet Union are not vastly superior to our own?

Mr. Judd

I must take up the last part of the hon. Gentleman's question. It is open to the charge of ambiguity. We are quite certain that the quality of our forces is second to none, but in quantitative terms, as we see it, the Warsaw Pact numbers of ground forces are at present 150,000 greater than ours on that front, and the ratio in tanks is 2.7:1.

Mr. James Lamond

If our forces are qualitatively superior to those of the Warsaw Pact, and in view of the importance laid upon this matter by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his speech to the United Nations Special Session on Disarmament, does my hon. Friend think that it was helpful in any way towards achieving agreement on these matters for NATO to have agreed in Washington, just before the Special Session, progressively to increase its armaments over a period exceeding the next 10 years?

Mr, Judd

The firm decision of the NATO Alliance to increase arms expenditure was taken reluctantly though necessarily because of a lack of meaningful progress in the disarmament negotiations. As a Minister who is second to nobody in Whitehall in a commitment to multilateral and effective disarmament, I believe that that can be achieved only in the context of firmness and of a clear indication to the Russians and their partners in the Warsaw Pact that if meaningful progress does not come about through mutual agreement we must take whatever measures are necessary to maintain our security.

Mr. John Davies

Will the Minister of State please say when the level of discussion will be raised to the level of Foreign Ministers, as the Prime Minister announced to the House some time ago?

Mr. Judd

As the right hon. Gentleman will recall, what happened was that this proposal was put by us to our NATO partners at the summit conference. They accepted that this should be done when sufficient progress had been made at the technical level to make a meeting of Foreign Ministers worth while. Unfortunately, that point has not yet been reached, but as soon as it is reached I am sure that we shall go ahead with the conference.