§ 3.38 p.m.
§ Mr. Richard Page (Workington)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to further amend the Employment Protection Act 1975.The amendment would be to allow the extension of the initial 26-week period from starting employment to 52 weeks before the implementation of this Act. The reason behind the amendment is, bluntly, to remove any inhibition in this area which an employer may have over offering initial employment. I believe that everybody has sympathy with the aims and objects of the Employment Protection Act but surely this Act only has relevance if it aids and does not hinder the opportunity of employment. In certain narrow areas—I concede that they are narrow areas—questions are being raised that point to the conclusion that sections of the present Act are inhibiting employment.The part of the economy that I have in mind which is most affected by such a section of the Act is that occupied by the small and medium business. In a recent survey of over 800 small firms in this sector, 85 per cent. of them felt that the short time scale of 26 weeks was a deterrent factor in the offering of employment.
With the number of unemployed at present at a staggering 1½ million, with several hundred thousand in artificial job creation schemes—I am not knocking the fact that there are artificial job creation schemes, but there is no substitute for the real thing—with the demanning that is taking place in nationalised industries and large companies, and with the forecast of more unemployment in the pipeline, although officially denied, all this shows that this Government have planted a terrible crop for us to harvest when we are in office after the next General Election.
The debate last night on unemployment exposed the failings and failures of the present Government. It is sad to reflect that since the Second World War some 33 years ago every time the Socialists have come to power they have succeeded in practically doubling unem- 1370 ployment. They are indeed true friends of the working men and women of this country! Surely it must now be realised that we have reached the end of the road in trying to solve our problems by heavy redistributive taxation.
At the end of a 13-year period we find that our productivity has gone up by only 25 per cent. yet our public expenditure has gone up by 33⅓ per cent. Surely we must now turn back to the idea of a free enterprise society which can produce far more wealth for the deprived members of our society, which in turn will give us better health, better education and better social services. To do so in this country we must promote and encourage the medium and small businesses, the self-employed, the entrepreneur and the professional man and woman—that is the only way in which we shall be able to give a better deal to the deprived members of our society.
Within the EEC, countries with populations comparable with our own, such as Germany and France, have small and medium businesses which contribute far more to their national incomes than ours at present. If we take Germany as an example for comparison—I accept the difficulties of comparing the small business sectors—it can be shown that Germany has approximately 1.6 million small businesses each employing between one and nine persons, giving employment to a total of 4.5 million people. Using comparable definitions and even allowing for the larger population of Germany, it can be shown that there are over 40 per cent. more small businesses in Germany than in Britain.
When we have encouraged this sector up to the levels achieved by the EEC we shall have won two major victories. The first will be an increase in prosperity to help the deprived sections of our society; the second will be the victory of decreasing unemployment. It needs the small business of this country to employ only one more person per firm and our unemployment would start to shrink dramatically. I think of the benefit of this to my own constituency which at present has 2,500 people out of work, 1,000 more than in the same period of 1973.
The productive hands of this sector are tied by a rope of many strands such as high personal taxation and vast increases 1371 in Government legislation, each and all of them calculated to restrain and discourage. This amendment to the Employment Protection Act will slacken one of those strands and help towards this country's future prosperity.
§ 3.45 p.m.
§ Mr. George Rodgers (Chorley) rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerDoes the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Rodgers) wish to oppose the Bill?
§ Mr. RodgersYes, Mr. Speaker. The Bill that we have heard presented by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Page) seeks to encourage the absurd myth that the Employment Protection Act is obstructing the recruitment of labour to small and medium-size firms. This misconception is easily disproved.
However, the suggested amendment to the Act has a wider purpose. It is designed to give credence to the policy that the Tory Party has some special concern and even affection for small enterprises. In truth, when a choice has to be made between the claims of big business and small business, it is inevitable that the Tory Party will give its favours to the large organisations—the multinational and the supranational companies.
We have already witnessed the activities of the asset stripper whose function is to close down small competitors and to destroy jobs in the process, in order to eliminate competition and to maximise profits. As every hon. Member must be aware, the heaviest despair of the small business man is the imposition of value added tax—a device introduced by the previous Tory Administration in order to ease our passage into the Common Market.
Small retailers complain, too, that the giant wholesalers supply goods to chain stores, supermarkets and hypermarkets on more favourable terms than those that are available to the small shopkeeper, yet there is no evidence whatsoever that a Conservative Government would, in those circumstances, intervene on behalf of small businesses to protect their interest. Indeed, the Conservative Party has not advanced any coherent policy whatsoever on behalf of small enterprises. Any suggestion that Tory Members have an ex- 1372 clusive relationship—some special understanding—with small business men is, in my view, not only misleading but totally fraudulent.
I turn to the section of the Employment Protection Act which is the cause of so much artificial outrage from the Benches opposite. This legislation reflects the view held on this side of the Chamber that working people are not just economic resources to be shifted around at will but individuals who build up rights in their jobs and have a claim to minimum standards of treatment by their employers. It may be that the author of the Bill is not aware that in a number of European countries provision is already made in respect of employment protection that is far superior to that which has been brought into being through the Employment Protection Act.
Of course, we have the usual confusion within the Tory Party ranks about the merits of the Act. Certainly the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), who is the Tory spokesman on employment, has made it clear that he is not committed to any hasty changes in the employment protection legislation. Of course, he may never be in a position to influence a course of events. Obviously, many of his Back Benchers have different views, and it is almost a pity that we are unlikely to see at any stage which section of the Tory Party has been enabled to impose its will on the other.
The Employment Protection Act has created a rift right through the Conservative Party, because I see that that august body, the Conservative trade union organisation, is aghast at the notion that George Ward—of Grunwick fame—is now being seriously considered as a Tory Party parliamentary candidate. This is the man who refuses to allow his employees to join a trade union, and the Tory trade unionist body is not normally entitled to do anything but show its face on a television screen or appear at a Tory Party conference to establish the relationship between the Tory Party hierarchy and the working man. Even this body has declared that it will not tolerate having this person, who has breached the Employment Protection Act—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."]—imposed upon the Tory Party.
1373 A recent study by the Conservative Centre for Policy Studies, an entirely independent body, has shown that there is little evidence that employment legislation in general and the Employment Protection Act in particular are inhibiting industrial recovery or contributing to high levels of unemployment.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speed it up."] Paradoxically, the aspect of current legislation that has made the most widespread impact on employers' practices was that concerning the unfair dismissal provisions—which date originally not from the Employment Protection Act but from the Industrial Relations Act, introduced by the Conservative Government in 1971.
It has been suggested that the unfair dismissal qualifying period should be extended from 26 to 52 weeks, but six months surely is sufficient for any employer to assess a new employee's contribution and potential. Surely this is especially true in a small firm. Furthermore, the possibility of a small firm facing a claim for unfair dismissal in any one
§ year is only one in a hundred and the possibility of that same firm having to pay compensation in any one year is less than one in a thousand.
§ As I indicated, the nonsense that has been spoken about the effect of employment opportunities can easily be dispelled. What I find unforgiveable is that Opposition Members are continually encouraging the myth—and in so doing are maliciously suggesting to small business men—that by engaging additional labour they will place their firms at risk. This myth has become self-perpetuating, and I trust that responsible Conservative Members will take steps to denounce this ill-conceived and damaging campaign against full employment.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and Nomination of Select Committees at Commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 184. Noes 203.
1377| Division No. 309] | AYES | [3.52 p.m. |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Emery, Peter | Jessel, Toby |
| Amery,Rt Hon Julian | Eyre, Reginald | Johnson Smith, G (E Grinstead) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Farr, John | Jones, Arthur (Daventry) |
| Baker, Kenneth | Fell, Anthony | Jopling, Michael |
| Banks, Robert | Finsberg, Geoffrey | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith |
| Beith, A. J. | Fisher, Sir Nigel | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| Bell, Ronald | Fookes, Miss Janet | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) | Forman, Nigel | Kimball, Marcus |
| Benyon, W. | Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | King, Evelyn(South Dorset) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Fry, Peter | King, Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Biffen, John | Gardiner, George(Reigate) | Kitson, Sir Timothy |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Gardner, Edward(S Fylde) | Knight, Mrs. Jill |
| Blaker, Peter | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham) | Lament, Norman |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Gilmour, Sir John(East Fife) | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Bottomley, Peter | Glyn, Dr Alan | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Bowden, A.(Brighton, Kemptown) | Goodhart, Philip | Lawson, Nigel |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Goodhew, Victor | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Goodlad, Alastair | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Brotherton, Michael | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Lloyd, Ian |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Luce, Richard |
| Buck, Antony | Gray, Hamish | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Budgen, Nick | Grimond, Rt Hon J. | MacGregor, John |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Grist, Ian | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) |
| Butler, Adam(Bosworth) | Grylls, Michael | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) |
| Carlisle, Mark | Hamilton, Archibald (Epsom & Ewell) | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Hamilton, Michael(Salisbury) | Marten, Neil |
| Clarke, Kenneth(Rushcliffe) | Hannam, John | Mates, Michael |
| Clegg, Walter | Hastings, Stephen | Maude, Angus |
| Cockcroft, John | Hawkins, Paul | Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Cooke, Robert(Bristol W) | Keseltine, Michael | Mayhew, Patrick |
| Cope, John | Higgins, Terence L. | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Cormack, Patrick | Holland, Philip | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) |
| Costain, A.P. | Hooson, Emlyn | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) |
| Critchley, Julian | Hordern, Peter | Molyneaux, James |
| Crouch, David | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Monro, Hector |
| Davies, Rt Hon J.(Knutsford) | Howell, David(Guildford) | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral |
| Dean, Paul(N Somerset) | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Neave, Airey |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Hunt, John(Ravensbourne) | Nelson, Anthony |
| Drayson, Burnaby | Hurd, Douglas | Neubert, Michael |
| Durant, Tony | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Newton, Tony |
| Dykes, Hugh | James, David | Normanton, Tom |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) | Nott, John |
| Oppenheim, Mrs Sally | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Page, John (Harrow West) | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Tapsell, Peter |
| Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Ross, William (Londonderry) | Taylor, R. (Croydon NW) |
| Page, Richard (Wokington) | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Pardoe, John | Royle, Sir Anthony | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Penhaligon, David | Scott-Hopkins, James | Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S) |
| Percival, Ian | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Peyton, Rt Hon John | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| Price, David (Eastleigh) | Shelton, William (Streatham) | Viggers, Peter |
| Prior, Rt Hon James | Shersby, Michael | Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester) |
| Pym, Rt Hon Francis | S[...]t, T. H. H. | Walters, Dennis |
| Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Rhodes James, R. | Speed, Keith | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Spence, John | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Ridsdale, Julian | Sproat, Iain | |
| Rifkind, Malcolm | Stanley, John | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey | Steel, Rt Hon David | Mr. Tim Smith and |
| Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) | Stokes, John | Mr. David Atkinson. |
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank | Forrester, John | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Anderson, Donald | Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Garrett, W. E.(Wallsend) | Mitchell, Ausitn (Grimsby) |
| Ashley, Jack | George, Bruce | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) |
| Ashton, Joe | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Morris, Rt Hon Charles R. |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Golding, John | Morton, George |
| Baln, Mrs Margaret | Gould, Bryan | Moyle, Rt Hon Roland |
| Earnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Graham, Ted | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Bates, Alf | Grant, John (Islington C) | Newens, Stanley |
| Bean, R. E. | Hamilton, W. W.(Central Fife) | Noble, Mike |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Hardy, Peter | Oakes, Gordon |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Hattersley,Rt Hon Roy | Ogden, Eric |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Havman, Mrs Helene | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Heffer, Eric S. | Ovenden, John |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Henderson, Douglas | Park, George |
| Bradley, Tom | Hooley, Frank | Parry, Robert |
| Bray,Dr Jeremy | Horam, John | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Hoyle, Doug(Nelson) | Pendry, Tom |
| Brown, Ronald(Hackney S) | Huckfield, Les | Prescott, John |
| Buchan, Norman | Hughes, Rt Hon C.(Anglesey) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| Buchanan, Richard | Hughes, Roy(Newport) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Campbell, Ian | Hunter, Adam | Radice, Giles |
| Canavan, Dennis | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) |
| Cant, R. B. | Janner, Greville | Richardson, Miss Jo |
| Carmichael, Neil | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Cartwright, John | Jeger, Mrs Lena | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Concannon, Rt Hon John | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Rooker, J. W |
| Conlan, Bernard | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Roper, John |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Jones, Dan(Burnley) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Corbett, Robin | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Sandelson, Neville |
| Cowans, Harry | Kelley, Richard | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Kerr, Russell | Sever, John |
| Crowther, Stan(Rotherham) | Kilrov-Silk, Robert | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Dalyell, Tam | Kinnock, Neil | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Davidson, Arthur | Lambie, David | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Lamborn, Harry | Silverman, Julius |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Lamond, James | Skinner, Dennis |
| Davis, Clinton(Hackney C) | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Dean, Joseph(Leeds West) | Lee, John | Smith, Rt Hon (N Lanarkshire) |
| de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Dempsey, James | Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Dewar, Donald | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Stoddart, David |
| Doig, Peter | Litterick, Tom | Stott, Roger |
| Dormand, J. D. | Loyden, Eddie | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Luard, Evan | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Duffy, A.E. P. | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | McCartney, Hugh | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Eadie, Alex | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Tierney, Sydney |
| Edge, Geoff | McElhone, Frank | Tilley, John |
| Edwards, Robert(Wolv SE) | McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Tinn, James |
| English, Michael | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Torney, Tom |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Maclennan, Robert | Tuck, Raphael |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Ewing, Mrs Winifred(Moray) | Madden, Max | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Fitch, Alan(Wigan) | Marks, Kenneth | Watkins, David |
| Flannery, Martin | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Watkinson, John |
| Fletcher, Ted(Darlington) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Watt, Hamish |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Mikardo, Ian | Welsh, Andrew |
| White, Frank R. (Bury) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea w) | Woof, Robert |
| White, James (Pollok) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Whitehead, Phillip | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) | |
| Whitlock, William | Willson, William (Coventry SE) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Wigley, Dafydd | Wise, Mrs Audrey | Mr. John Ellis and |
| Willey, Rt Hon Frederick | Woodall, Alec | Mr. Bruce Grocott. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.