List D Schools

HC Deb 19 July 1978 vol 954 cc523-5

14. Mr. Alexander Fletcher

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has now reached a decision regarding the administration of List D schools.

Mr. McElhone

My right hon. Friend hopes to do so shortly.

Mr. Fletcher

Is the Minister aware of the uncertainty felt by managers and staff in these institutions as the discussions drag on, as he must know they have done, for several years? When will he make a statement and come to a conclusion on this matter? Will he do so before the House rises? If not, why not?

Mr. McElhone

I cannot promise that my right hon. Friend will manage to make a statement before the House rises, which will not be long. But the hon. Member should know that I have had many meetings with the many interests involved. The major problem is that the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Scotland, the STUC, the staff associations and others are opposed to the transfer of the schools to the regional authorities. The hon. Gentleman's Government and our Government took the view that the schools should come under the control of democratically elected personnel who are in the regional authorities. That is the main difficulty. We must resolve it by winning the argument. The discussions are going on, and my right hon. Friend hopes to make a statement shortly.

Mr. Lambie

Can my hon. Friend explain to me why the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church, the STUC and the staffs concerned in the schools are all against changing the administration of the schools? Can he explain who is in favour of it?

Mr. McElhone

I am sorry that we do not have a long enough Question Time to deal with that question.

Mr. Lambie

Give us one who is in favour.

Mr. McElhone

Perhaps I may be allowed to name two or three. They include the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Advisory Council on Social Work, the Association of Directors of Social Work, and the reporters to children's panels. I think that we would all agree that the combination of the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church and the STUC is a formidable one.

Miss Harvie Anderson

Does the Minister agree that while this haggle is going on grave difficulties within the schools require to be resolved? Has he any comment to make on, for example, the length of stay of the pupils in the schools and the plans, which at present appear to be in total limbo, for what happens to the pupils when they leave the schools?

Mr. McElhone

I do not deny that there is a problem about youngsters leaving the schools and about the follow-up. I have had many discussions with the bodies which run the schools, including the Churches.

As for the time spent in the schools, the right hon. Lady should know that because of the particular attention that my Department and I have been paying to the matter the waiting list has shrunk. We are getting a quicker turnover in the number of youngsters using the schools. I have a group of officials examining a quicker, much better use of the schools by the youngsters and the authorities which send them to the schools. But there is a problem, and I do not deny it. We are looking at it as best we can.

Mr. Gordon Wilson

Has not the decision-making process been dragging on for about three years? The Government have also failed to implement their promise in connection with the Children Act 1975 that they would introduce reforms in the children's panels. Is not that an indication also of the paralysis in decision-making that seems to affect the Scottish Office these days?

Mr. McElhone

I would think that the recent election results show more of a paralysis within the Scottish National Party. Going on to the major point, I can say that we are aware that there is a great deal of interest in List D schools at present.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned children's panels. He should also know that we have been consulting the various bodies about the extended powers of children's panels. We are looking at this. However, there is no easy answer to this matter. The hon. Gentleman should also know that 18 months ago I initiated a scheme to create community parents, that is to say, to take young offenders out of the institutions and put them into ordinary working-class homes. That scheme is working. Indeed, Strathclyde has now suggested that it be extended throughout Scotland. I am not entirely satisfied with the running of its List D schools. I have a great deal of admiration for the people who work in them. I believe that changes have to be made, although serious consideration must be given to them, after consulting the many bodies involved in the exercise, before making announcements at the Dispatch Box.