HC Deb 17 July 1978 vol 954 cc207-20

Lords amendment: No. 97, in page 33, line 16, leave out subsection (4).

Mr. Milan

I beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this amendment we may discuss Lords amendments nos. 135, 165, 168, 216 and 231.

Mr. Millan

All of these amendments deal with the devolution of forestry. The key amendment is Lords amendment no. 135. It would have the effect of reserving forestry to this House.

The Government's proposal to devolve forestry matters was debated at some length in Committee in this House on an amendment moved by the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) which was defeated. A subsequent amendment in the other place, however, was carried by one vote. I recommend that the House should reverse that decision and put forestry as a devolved subject in the hands of the Scottish Assembly.

I agree, of course, that this is not a completely simple matter, given the arrangements for the State-owned forests under the Forestry Commission. We are dealing both with the State-owned forests and private forestry interests. There are certain arrangements for private forestry involving various forms of Government assistance. This is not a simple matter in terms of devolution to the Assembly but we considered the matter with great care before deciding that forestry was a suitable subject—I regard it as particularly suitable—for devolution.

We looked at the scope for devolution in the analogous subjects of planning, land use and the countryside, which are devolved subjects, recreation, rural development and tourism. We also had regard to the links with agriculture, but there were special reasons for taking agriculture as a reserved matter. In that context the question of our relationship with the Community, which does not apply to the same degree in forestry, has been taken into account.

Forestry is a matter of great importance to the rural areas of Scotland, and if one disregarded all the various complications one's natural instinct would be to say that forestry was the kind of subject which intrinsically ought to be devolved. Forestry is proportionately a good deal more important in Scotland than it is in the rest of the United Kingdom. It excites a certain amount of interest, and even controversy in Scotland. It is a matter which, without the complications, one would expect to fall naturally within the powers of the Scottish Assembly.

Mrs. Winifred Ewing

Does the Secretary of State agree that the position between Scotland and England in forestry is fundamentally important on many grounds? There are three main grounds on which I must ask the Minister whether he agrees with me. The first is future acreage for the forestry State ownership, because in England I understand there is very little to be done. Second—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. We are working under a guillotine. The hon. Lady must make her intervention brief.

Mrs. Ewing

There are three situations in which things are very different. Future acreage is one. The second is that in England timber is not really a crop, whereas in Scotland it is. The third is land acquisition, where there is great scope in Scotland, but which is almost at an end in England.

Mr. Millan

I would not necessarily agree with the hon. Lady on the holdings points. I am agreeing with her to the extent—I thought that I had already made this clear—that forestry is considerably more important proportionately in Scotland than in the rest of the United Kingdom.

Mrs. Ewing

That is saying nothing.

Mr. Millan

I think that it is saying a great deal. I should have thought that anyone knowing something of Forestry Commission matters in Scotland would believe that this is the kind of subject which is very suitable for devolution. However, we must also take account of the fact that we have built up through the Forestry Commission a particular kind of State enterprise which encompasses the whole of the United Kingdom and which is responsible at the minute not to one Minister but to three—the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales and the Minister of Agriculture.

It is important that we maintain the integrity of the Forestry Commission, but the Bill does that by providing in Schedule 10 that the Assembly will not be able to abolish the Commission as the instrument of forestry policies in Scotland or transfer any of its main activities to a new body. Therefore, the integrity of the Commission is preserved and it will serve as a common source of expert advice on forestry matters to the Government, to the Scottish administration and to the Welsh Assembly. There are other reservations in the Bill which are important when considering the whole problem of forestry.

First, there is no devolution relating to the fiscal treatment of forestry, which is of considerable importance to woodland owners and on which the Government have made certain concessions in recent Budgets. There is a strong case for maintaining the integrity of United Kingdom provision there. Second, there is no devolution in relation to plant health—that is analogous to a number of other things that we have done—which is important to the whole United Kingdom. Third, the Commission's research facilities, which are part of its central capability, will be maintained in a unified form.

Within those reservations, there is considerable scope for the Assembly to take policy decisions, particularly as to the scope of planting, the amount of money to be invested in planting and the acreage to be planted and the rest in relation to Scotland which are perfectly suitable for devolution and where there is no particular reason that the Scottish Executive should take the same view as the Government in Westminster.

That means that the Commission could adopt different priorities in Scotland, where it would be subject to the direction of the Minister, whereas in England it would be subject to the direction of the Minister of Agriculture. But that is not much different from the present regime, because the Commission already operates under the regime of tripartite responsibility I have described. As a matter of actual practical experience, a larger and larger share of the Commission's planting activity has been taking place in Scotland in recent years.

11.45 p.m.

It might be possible to argue that in terms of the harvesting and marketing of timber, there is a good deal to be said for a unified policy in relation to the rest of the United Kingdom. I find these arguments less than persuasive. Again, they are very much related to the management of the forestry estate in Scotland, and I see no reason why they should not be devolved as well. Nor do I believe that the arguments about the reservation of most of agricultural activity and policy point in the same direction for forestry. There are very different considerations involved, not the last of which are our relationships within the Community.

Mr. Jasper More (Ludlow)

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that the Forestry Commission is in favour of these devolution proposals?

Mr. Millan

I do not think that I can do that. The Forestry Commission is an agency of the Government. But it is well known that there are people within the forestry industry in the United Kingdom, both in the State-owned section of the industry and in the private industry, who are not in favour of the devolution of forestry. The Forestry Commission is an agent of the Government. I do not believe that we ought to look upon the commission, on a matter of this nature, as being the determining factor in what this House does or what the Government do. It is a factor.

Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South-West)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Millan

No. I have little time left to me. I imagine that the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) will want to say a few words before we come to a decision on this matter, and I am sure that his hon. Friends do not want to encourage me to speak until midnight.

These matters of policy in relation to devolution are matters for this House and for the Government. They are not matters where we take the view of the Forestry Commission. Certainly they are not matters where we take the view of the private sector of forestry as determining our attitude.

I do not believe that the links between forestry and agriculture in administrative terms are such that it is necessary for both subjects in policy terms to be dealt with by the same administration. Of course, there will still have to be very close co-operation between those involved in the two activities of forestry and agriculture, but where the two activities impinge on one another most seriously is in relation to land use, and of course land use is a devolved responsibility of the Scottish Assembly and is not a reserved matter. Nor do I believe that some of the other arguments about the Assembly being urban-dominated and the rest are matters that should be taken into account.

When we last debated this subject, the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Fairgrieve) said that he was in favour of it going to the Assembly because he did not believe that the Assembly could make a worse job of it than the House of Commons had made in past years or that the Assembly would take less interest in it than the House of Commons had done. With great respect to the House, there is a certain validity in that argument.

I certainly believe that those who wish to see the development of a thriving forestry industry in Scotland, and I would count myself among them, would take the view that this House and successive Governments have necessarily contributed towards that aim. I would certainly take the view that the Assembly, with responsibility for forestry, has the opportunity, if it wishes to further the active development of forestry, of increasing the importance of forestry to the Scottish economy. My personal view is that I hope that the Assembly will do that, because I believe that forestry has great potential importance to the Scottish economy.

As I say, if it were not for these various administrative complications to which a number of hon. Members have drawn attention in our previous debates, this would be the kind of subject which would strike one immediately as being peculiarly suited for devolution to the Assembly. That is the view that the Government have taken. It is for that reason that we are recommending that this House should disagree with their Lordships' amendment on forestry.

Mr. George Younger (Ayr)

We are very grateful to the Secretary of State for his explanation, but I must point out that his idea of a fair debate on a subject as important as this, ever under a guillotine, is biased and one-sided. To take over 20 minutes and to leave nine minutes for everyone else in the House to make a point on this subject makes a travesty of the idea of having a debate at all. I hope that the Secretary of State will take it that we think that the time that he took was grossly excessive in these circumstances.

I would urge the House to agree with the Lords in this amendment because I think that, even with the Secretary of State's explanation, it became clearer and clearer that the Government's arrangements for dealing with forestry after devolution are a dog's breakfast. As the Secretary of State described it, it was made perfectly clear that there are to be so many different eggs to make up this pudding that I very much doubt whether the forestry industry as a whole will be able to make good sense of it and to expand, as the Secretary of State said he wished it to do.

This is one industry. It is a big industry. It is an important industry. It is an industry which could have a big role to play in import saving if it is allowed a decent future with a proper basis on which to work.

Yet the Government, as part of the devolution policy, bring in a system, as the Secretary of State has described, whereby the tax policy for the industry, which is vital to the whole private sector, is determined by central Government, by this House and the Treasury, whereby the land use policy is to be decided by the Assembly in Scotland, whereby the policy on grants to growers of trees is to be decided by the Assembly, and whereby plant health considerations are to be decided by this House and the United Kingdom Government. Those dealings, such as they are, for the future, which will undoubtedly be more and more with the EEC, will be a matter for this House to consider.

Then we have the truly Gilbertian situation of the Forestry Commission itself, which is to be a single entity charged with carrying on its business as one Government organ, yet it is to have three different masters, one in England, one in Scotland and one in Wales. They will not even be three parallel bodies. Each one of those bodies has a completely different nature and completely different circumstances in which it works. One is the Government here and the House of Commons, one is the Scottish Assembly, and the other is the Welsh Assembly, which is quite different from the Scottish Assembly.

I cannot think of a better recipe for putting any industry into a complete muddle. Yet the industry must work in one market. It is selling its products in one market, in one economy, under one general taxation system.

People in the industry are competing, in many cases on a day-to-day basis, with competitors in other parts of the country, who may well be growing their trees and operating their business on a completely different basis from that of any particular producer.

Then we have the strange contradiction of the Government's arguments when we look at their arguments for not treating agriculture in the same way. The Secretary of State has brushed aside the fact that forestry and agriculture have very close connections with each other as not being quite as important as many of us think. Yet many hon. Members on both sides of the House have been preaching for years that greater integration between forestry and agriculture is very important for both of these great industries. The crazy point is that when the Government themselves argue that agriculture should not be treated in this way, what do they say? They say that it is very difficult to make different arrangements for financing support systems in agriculture in different parts of the United Kingdom. Why is it so very difficult for the Government to do this in agriculture but very much to be advised, very sensible and very easy when it comes to dealing with forestry? I do not think that it makes any sense.

Then there is the question of what the industry itself thinks about it. The Secretary of State was not able to deny, and nor can I, that the Forestry Commission is thought to be very much against this proposal. I am not privy to the inner counsels of the Commission but I am for- tunate, as are other hon. Members, in having received the views of an extremely distinguished person, who is not only the ex-chairman of the Forestry Commission but a loyal supporter of the Labour Party, and has been for many years. Lord Taylor of Gryfe has written to Lord Dulverton making his views very clear. He says in the letter, which he has asked to be made public: During my period of office as Chairman of the Forestry Commission I had the Headquarters removed to Edinburgh and it would now be a piece of nonsense to devolve forestry. It would add to the bureaucracy and it would make it increasingly difficult for the industry to deal with so many government bodies if the Assemblies of Wales and Scotland were added. I shall be pleased if you will make this view known to as many MPs as possible in the hope that the reasonable Amendment which you moved and which stood in my name"— in the House of Lords— will be accepted by the Commons.

Mr. Dalyell

Not only Lord Taylor of Gryfe but the general secretary of SOGAT, the trade union most involved, has written to us all, as have the paper and board employers.

Mr. Younger

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. We can add to the list the Forestry Committee of Great Britain, which deals with the interests of the industry as a whole, and the Home-grown Timber Advisory Committee. They have all made their views clear. So in doing what they propose, the Government are not only making an arrangement which any unbiased observer sees at a glance to be a piece of nonsense, but they are doing it in the teeth of all the advice they have received from the industry, producers, customers and Forestry Commission members alike.

The Government are being extremely ill advised, and I urge the House on this occasion, if on not many others, to agree that the only sensible thing to do is to recognise that the forestry industry is one with great potential which operates in one market and that it ought to operate under one system of support. What is the point of having three different sources of support for it—an Assembly in Scotland, an Assembly in Wales and the Government here—unless they are to have different policies? The right hon. Gentleman was open about that. Yet if all three are to have continually diverging policies, how on earth are they to compete in the same market? The Government's method of dealing with the situation is a load of nonsense, and the Government would be well advised on this occasion to listen to the Lords. I urge the House to support the Lords amendment.

Mr. John Parker (Dagenham)

On this occasion I support the Lords amendment. It is a nonsense to try to separate agriculture from forestry. The two have been trying to unite and to plan together for years. If there were a case for devolving forestry, agriculture would be devolved as well. But there is not a case for devolving forestry and there is not a case for devolving agriculture. If we are to integrate them, we must keep them together.

They must be kept under the United Kingdom Parliament because the United Kingdom Parliament must finally decide how big the forestry industry must be. At present, apart from food, timber is one of our biggest imports. We need to increase the acreage under timber in the years to come, and that can be done in a really constructive way only by the

Division No. 277] AYES [12.00 m.
Allaun, Frank Clemitson, Ivor Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)
Archer, Peter Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) English, Michael
Armstrong, Ernest Cohen, Stanley Evans, John (Newton)
Ashley, Jack Coleman, Donald Ewing, Harry (Stirling)
Ashton, Joe Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Conlan, Bernard Faulds, Andrew
Atkinson, David (Bournemouth E) Corbett, Robin Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.
Atkinson, Norman Cowans, Harry Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Flannery, Martin
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Bates, Alf Crawford, Douglas Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Bean, R. E. Crawshaw, Richard Ford, Ben
Beith, A. J. Cronin, John Forrester, John
Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood Crowther, J. S. Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Cryer, Bob Fraser, John (Lambeth, (N'w'd)
Bidwell, Sydney Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Bishop, E. S. Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiten) Freud. Clement
Benkinsop, Arthur Davidson, Arthur Garrett, John (Norwich S)
Boardman, H. Dairies, Bryan (Enfield N) George, Bruce
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Boothroyd, Miss Batty Davies, Ifor (Gower) Ginsburg, David
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Golding, John
Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Deakins, Eric Gould, Bryan
Bradley, Tom Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Gourlay, Harry
Bray, Dr Jeremy de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Graham, Ted
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Dempsey, James Grant, John (Islington C)
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) Dewar, Donald Grimond, Rt Hon J.
Buchan, Norman Doig, Peter Grocott, Bruce
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Dormand, J. D. Hardy, Peter
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Douglas-Mann, Bruce Harrison, Rt Hon Walter (Wakefield)
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Duffy, A. E. P. Hart, Rt Hon Judith
Campbell, Ian Dunn, James A. Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Canavan, Dennis Dunnett, Jack Hayman, Mrs Helene
Cant, R. B. Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Heffer, Eric S.
Carmichael, Neil Eadie, Alex Henderson, Douglas
Carter-Jones, Lewis Edge, Geoff Hooley, Frank
Cartwright, John Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) Hooson, Emlyn
Castle, Rt Hon Barbara Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) Horam, John

United Kingdom Parliament and Government. I hope that on this occasion the House will support the Lords amendment.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Edinburgh, West)

I beg to follow the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Parker), because he was responsible to a large extent for sending the Forestry Commission headquarters to my constituency. I say to the hon. Member and to all other hon. Members that it is only fair that they should know that many of those who work in the Forestry Commission headquarters are deeply unhappy at the prospect of being devolved. There is at present one accounting system, and they say that there will be an English accounting system, a Scottish accounting system and a Welsh accounting system—

It being midnight, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order [4th July], to put forthwith the Question already proposed front the Chair.

Question put:—That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 285, Noes

Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Spearing, Nigel
Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Spriggs, Leslie
Hoyie, Doug (Nelson) Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) Steel, Rt Hon David
Huckfield, Les Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) Stewart, Rt Hon Donald
Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)
Hughes. Roy (Newport) Morris, Rt Hon Charles R. Stoddart, David
Hunter, Adam Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Stott, Roger
Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) Morton, George Strang, Gavin
Irving. Rt Hon S. (Dartford) Moyle, Rt Hon Roland Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.
Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Swain, Thomas
Janner, Greville Newens, Stanley Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Noble, Mike Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Jeger, Mrs Lena Oakes, Gordon Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Ogden, Eric Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)
John, Brynmor Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Johnson, James (Hull West) Ovenden, John Thompson, George
Johnson, Walter (Derby S) Palmer, Arthur Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Pardoe, John Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Park, George Tierney, Sydney
Jones, Barry (East Flint) Parry, Robert Tilley, John
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Pavitt, Laurie Tinn, James
Judd, Frank Pendry, Tom Tomlinson, John
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Penhaligon, David Tornney, Frank
Kelley, Richard Perry, Ernest Torney, Tom
Killedder, James Price, C. (Lewisham W) Urwin, T. W.
Kilroy-Silk, Robert Price, William (Rugby) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Kinnock, Neil Radice, Giles Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Lambie, David Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Lamborn, Harry Reid, George Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Lamond, James Richardson, Miss Jo Ward, Michael
Latham, Arthur (Paddington) Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Watkins, David
Lee, John Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Watkinson, John
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Robertson, George (Hamilton) Watt, Hamish
Lever, Rt Hon Harold Robertson, John (Paisley) Weetch, Ken
Loyden, Eddie Robinson, Geoffrey Weitzman, David
Luard, Evan Roderick, Caerwyn
Lyon, Alexander (York) Rodgers, George (Chorley) Wellbeloved, James
Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) White, Frank R. (Bury)
Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Rooker, J. W. White, James (Pollok)
McCartney, Hugh Roper, John Whitehead, Phillip
McDonald, Dr Oonagh Rose, Paul B. Whitlock, William
McElhone, Frank Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Wigley, Dafydd
MacFarquhar, Roderick Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
McGuire, Michael (Ince) Rowlands, Ted Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
McKay, Allen (Penistons) Ryman, John Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)
MacKenzie, Gregor Sedgemore, Brian Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)
Maclennan, Robert Sever, John Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
McNarrvara, Kevin Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Madden, Max Shore, Rt Hon Peter Wise, Mrs Audrey
Magee, Bryan Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) Woodall, Alec
Mahon, Simon Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) Woof, Robert
Mallalieu, J. P. W. Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) Wrigglesworth, Ian
Marks, Kenneth Sillars, James Young, David (Bolton E)
Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Silverman, Julius
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Skinner, Dennis TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Meacher, Michael Smith, Rt Hon John (N Lanarkshire) Mr. James Hamilton and
Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Snape, Peter Mr. A. W. Stallard
Mikardo, Ian
Adley, Robert Brittan, Leon Cope, John
Aitken, Jonathan Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Cormack, Patrick
Alison, Michael Brooke, Peter Costain, A. P.
Arnold, Tom Brotherton, Michael Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Crouch, David
Awdry, Daniel Bryan, Sir Paul Crowder, F. P.
Baker, Kenneth Buchanan, Richard Dalyell, Tam
Banks, Robert Buck, Antony Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)
Bell, Ronald Budgen, Nick Dean, Paul (N Somerset)
Bendall, Vivian Bulmer, Esmond Dodsworth, Geoffrey
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) Burden, F. A. Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Drayson, Bumaby
Benyon, W. Carlisle, Mark du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Biffen, John Chalker, Mrs Lynda Durant, Tony
Biggs-Davison, John Channon, Paul Dykes, Hugh
Blaker, Peter Churchill, W. S. Eden, Rt Hon Sir John
Body, Richard Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Boscawen, Hon Robert Clark, William (Croydon S) Elliott, Sir William
Bottomley, Peter Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcllffe) Emery, Peter
Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) Clegg, Waiter Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Cockroft, John Eyre, Reginald
Braine, Sir Bernard Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) Fairbairn, Nicholas
Farr, John Langford-Holt, Sir John Ronton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)
Fell, Anthony Latham, Michael (Melton) Rhodes James, R.
Finsberg, Geoffrey Lawrence, Ivan Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Fisher, Sir Nigel Lawson, Nigel Ridley, Hon Nicholas
Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) Le Marchant, Spencer Ridsdale, Julian
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Lester, Jim (Beeston) Rifkind, Malcolm
Fookes, Miss Janet Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Forman, Nigel Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) Lloyd, Ian Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Fox, Marcus Loveridge, John Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) Luce, Richard Ross, William (Londonderry)
Fry, Peter McCrindle, Robert Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. Macfarlane, Neil Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
Gardiner, George (Reigate) MacGregor, John Royle, Sir Anthony
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) MacKay, Andrew (Stechtord) Sainsbury, Tim
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Famham) St. John-Stevas, Norman
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham) McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) Sandelson, Neville
Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) Scott, Nicholas
Glyn, Dr Alan Madel, David Scott-Hopkins, James
Godber, Rt Hon Joseph Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Goodhart, Philip Marten, Neil Shelton, William (Streatham)
Goodhew, Victor Mates, Michael Shepherd, Colin
Goodlad, Alastair Mather, Carol Shersby, Michael
Gorst, John Maude, Angus Silvester, Fred
Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald Sims, Roger
Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Mawby, Ray Sinclair, Sir George
Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Skeet, T. H. H.
Grieve, Percy Mayhew, Patrick Smith, Dudley (Warwick)
Griffiths, Eldon Meyer, Sir Anthony Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)
Grist, Ian Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Speed, Keith
Grylls, Michael Mills, Peter Spence, John
Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Miscampbell, Norman Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)
Hamilton, Archibald (Eps'm & Ewell) Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Moate, Roger Stainton, Keith
Hampson, Dr Keith Molloy, William Stanbrook, Ivor
Hannam, John Molyneaux, James Stanley, John
Harrison Col Sir Harwood (Eye) Monro, Hector Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)
Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss Montgomery, Fergus Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Haselhurst, Alan Moore, John (Croydon C) Stokes, John
Hastings, Stephen More, Jasper (Ludlow) Stradling Thomas, J.
Havers, Sir Michael Morgan, Geraint Tapsell, Peter
Hawkins, Paul Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)
Heath, Rt Hon Edward Morris, Michael (Northampton S) Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Hicks, Robert Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Tebbit, Norman
Hodgson, Robin Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) Temple-Morris, Peter
Holland, Philip Mudd, David Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret
Hordern, Peter Neave, Airey Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)
Howell, David (Guildford) Nelson, Anthony Townsend, Cyril D.
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Neubert, Michael Trotter, Neville
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Newton, Tony van Straubenzee, W. R.
Hunt, David (Wirral) Normanton, Tom Vaughan, Or Gerard
Hunt, John (Bromley) Nott, John Viggers, Peter
Hurd, Douglas Oppenheim, Mrs Sally Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)
Hutchison, Michael Clark Osborn, John Wakeham, John
Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) Page, John (Harrow West) Walder, David (Clitheroe)
James, David Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) Page, Richard (Workington) Wall, Patrick
Jessel, Toby Parker, John Walters, Dennis
Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) Parkinson, Cecil Warren, Kenneith
Jones, Arthur (Daventry) Pattie, Geoffrey Weatherill, Bernard
Jopling, Michael Percival, Ian Wells, John
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Peyton, Rt Hon John Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Kaberry, Sir Donald Pink, R. Bonner Whitney, Raymond
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch Wiggin, Jerry
Kershaw, Anthony Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Kimball, Marcus Price, David (Eastleigh) Winterton, Nicholas
King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Prior, Rt Hon James Wood, Rt Hon Richard
King, Tom (Bridgwater) Pym, Rt Hon Francis Younger, Hon George
Kitson, Sir Timothy Raison, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Jill Rathbone, Tim TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Knox, David Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) Sir George Young and
Lamont, Norman Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) Mr. Anthony Berry

Question accordingly agreed to.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at midnight.

Lords amendments nos. 98 to 100 agreed to.

Lords amendment no.101 disagreed to.

Lords amendments nos. 102 to 108 agreed to.

Lords amendments to be further considered this day.—[Mr. Millan.]