HC Deb 13 July 1978 vol 953 cc1708-12
4. Miss Maynard

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will now agree to a deputation of hon. Members going to Northern Ireland to visit the prisons there, including H block, in the light of recent events.

Mr. Concannon

Since the beginning of the year, 12 hon. Members have made general interest visits to Her Majesty's Prison, Maze. Such visits, however, inevitably create a certain tension in the prisons and place a considerable burden on prison staff. In the present circumstances of an intensified protest over the special category issue at Her Majesty's Prison, Maze, I have concluded that there should be no further general interest visits by hon. Members for the time being. I hope that it will be possible to allow a resumption of these after a period of calm. Visits to constituents will, of course, be unaffected.

Miss Maynard

I find that reply as disappointing as the one I received when I asked the same Question some weeks ago. Does not the Minister feel that, if a deputation of MPs was allowed to go, it would help to allay disquiet in many quarters about the situation in the Maze? Does not this kind of answer give the impression that we have something to hide? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the situation in Northern Ireland and the problems there can be solved only by a political answer and not by force of arms or violence from any quarter?

Mr. Concannon

I wish that my hon. Friend would at times accord me the same generosity when I tell her things as she seems to accord to just about everyone else. What is happening in these prisons has been brought on by the inmates themselves. They are deliberately fouling and messing up one of the best prisons in Europe. If I announced that a deputation of Members was going to visit Her Majesty's Prison, Maze, I would certainly find that there was an intensification of the efforts of the people inside. Hon. Members must understand that their efforts are aimed at securing special category status. This House has on more than one occasion stated quite clearly that it wishes to see the ending of the special category. I am doing all I can to pursue this aim, and I wish that everyone in this House would back me to the hilt.

Mr. Carson

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is impossible to integrate children in schools in Northern Ireland? Is he also aware that even the Minister responsible for housing in Northern Ireland is talking about keeping Protestants and Catholics apart by putting them in separate factories'? Does he not agree that we should at present segregate Protestant and Catholic prisoners, some of whom have been sentenced for the foulest crimes? Will he also tell us how many Protestants are taking part in the prison protests at present?

Mr. Concannon

First, when looking for jobs in the Province I certainly do not look for Protestant or Catholic jobs. I am looking for jobs for the Province as a whole and at where one can put them for the Province as a whole. There is nothing in the suggestion of job segregation, because after the legislation of last year it would be illegal anyway. As regards how many Protestants are envisaged to be involved in the present protests in the Maze, though I do not like to use the words "Protestant" or "Catholic" with regard to prisoners, as the hon. Gentleman has asked me a straight question I will give him a straight answer. The answer is "No."

Mr. Litterick

Does the Minister recognise, however, that the Question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Miss Maynard) was not about the possibility of what the Minister called a general interest visit but about the possibility of what I consider would more accurately be called a specific interest visit to this prison?

It would be a specific visit to examine at first hand—by talking to the people involved, the staff of the prison and the inmates—the circumstances in which the present situation has arisen there.

Mr. Concannon

The reason why this situation has arisen in that prison is that it is a straight protest by those concerned because they wish to have special category status given to these prisoners. This House, two and a half years ago, said that this had to end, and there was general agreement to that effect in this House. I am trying to end this situation, and it is working. If hon. Members want to help those people, I can assure them that if they intend to press for a visit to Her Majesty's prison now, they will be adding succour and help to those who are involved. These prisoners are doing some terrible things, such as fouling their own cells, which I find disgusting. The only thing I impress upon hon. Members is that the prisoners' own actions are keeping them in prison that much longer. They have lost nearly 300 years of remission of sentence. When I consider some of the heinous crimes that some of these people have committed, I am not sorry that we are keeping them in prison a little longer.

Mr. Farr

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that many of us on the Opposition Benches are full of admiration for the prison officers in Northern Ireland and the excellent way in which they are doing a very difficult job at the moment? Does he further recognise that many of us also feel that at this particular time a visit by Members of Parliament—bearing in mind the composition of such a party—could indeed do much more harm than good?

Mr. Concannon

I thank the hon. Member for seeing it in that way, because that is exactly my position at this moment. However, constituency Members and Members who represent prisoners will not be affected. I believe that most of the hon. Members have visited the prisons fairly recently.

Mr. Flannery

Will my right hon. Friend accept from me that he is unduly touchy about this particular question in the way that he imputed a wrong motive to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Miss Maynard)? Does he further accept from me that there is not unanimity in this House, no matter how much the United Ulster Unionists cheer him every time he speaks? Finally, does he accept from me that, in the light of the Amnesty International report, if he does not allow Members of Parliament from this House to visit that gaol there will be a feeling among the members of the general public that we have something to hide, and that we should be doing the democratic cause justice by allowing Members of Parliament to go and look at that prison?

Mr. Concannon

I completely refute just about everything my hon. Friend has said.

Mr. Flannery

I know that my right hon. Friend will do that.

Mr. Concannon

I do not know what the Amnesty International report has to do with the Northern Ireland prison service at this moment in time. Anyone who has visited this prison in normal circumstances will know full well that it is a new prison and one of the best in Europe with the best facilities. What is happening is due to only a certain minority—and it is a minority; just two of the H blocks out of eight. If my hon. Friend wishes to exacerbate the trouble that I already have in these prisons, he should carry on with what he is doing, because these people will hinge on every word that is said in this House today and will escalate their protests, thereby making the job of settling these prisoners down and ending the special categories that much more difficult.

Mr. Molyneaux

Does the Minister agree that the presence of such a deputation would, in fact, play into the hands of the terrorist propaganda machine and that it would inhibit very severely the efforts of himself, the prison authorities and all who are engaged in the welfare of the prisoners from restoring normal discipline to the prison, including the abolition of the special category?

Mr. Concannon

I think that the hon. Gentleman, along with other Members, paid a visit to the prisons not so long ago, and I thank him for those remarks. I believe he understands the situation and the propaganda value that such a visit would have at present.