HC Deb 06 July 1978 vol 953 cc668-73

3.50 p.m.

The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. William Rodgers)

At about 02.50 this morning the 21.30 sleeping-car express from Penzance to Paddington was brought to a halt approaching Taunton with the leading coaches on fire. I greatly regret that, despite rescue attempts, 11 passengers lost their lives and a further 20 passengers were injured, of whom 15 have been detained in hospital.

I have ordered a full inquiry into the accident, which will be held in public as soon as possible by an inspecting officer of railways. In the circumstances it would be clearly wrong for me to speculate on the cause of the fire.

British Railways have an excellent safety record. This is the first accident involving the death of a passenger since 1975 and the worst in terms of fatal casualties for over 10 years. This makes the tragedy doubly distressing. I am sure that the House would wish to express its deepest sympathy with the families and friends of all those who have been killed and its concern for the speedy recovery of the injured.

Mr. du Cann

Is the Secretary of State aware that his statement will be much appreciated? Having made my own inquiries in my constituency from an early hour today, may I associate myself unreservedly with everything that he has said, as I am sure the whole House would unhesitatingly like to be associated with his remarks of sympathy to those involved?

In particular, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the combined emergency services acted with remarkable promptitude and the very greatest efficiency? I cannot be the only Member of Parliament to reflect upon how fortunate we are in the United Kingdom that constantly on duty are bands of people ready to go to the aid of their fellow citizens and, on occasion, entirely careless of their own safety. Acts of gallantry were performed in the rescue operations this morning, as the Secretary of State will know. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House and the whole nation is proud of the outstanding safety record of British Rail? We are especially proud of that safety record in the West Country, where safety is a tradition.

The right hon. Gentleman used the words "as soon as possible" about the inquiry. Of course he is right. Speculation as to the causes of this dreadful accident should be eschewed by everyone. On the other hand, the public require reassurance, and the need for that is urgent. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House that he will arrange that the inquiry will be completed at the earliest possible moment?

Mr. Rodgers

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his generous and well-justified remarks, including his tribute to the safety record of British Rail. I should like this inquiry to be held as soon as possible. As the House knows, the procedure is that British Rail will conduct an internal inquiry solely to obtain the necessary evidence, and the public inquiry begins usually after about 10 or 14 days. But I am sure that we want it to start as soon as possible and conclude its hearings swiftly.

Mr. Heffer

Did my right hon. Friend hear the "Today" programme this morning in which one of the survivors said that it was impossible to get out because of the new type of double windows that could not be wound down? If this is so, surely this should be looked at quickly, because people must be able to get out in such circumstances.

Mr. Rodgers

I heard that programme and I have heard subsequent comment relating to the problem not only of the windows but of the doors. But it would be quite inappropriate for me to form a view. These are precisely the matters which the inquiry will look into.

Mr. Norman Fowler

Is the Secretary of State aware that we should all like to be associated with his expression of sympathy to the families and friends of those who have been killed and, indeed, with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) has said? We, too, welcome the inquiry and the Secretary of State's assurance that the results will be published as soon as possible.

I have two short points that I should like to put to the Secretary of State. First, will he accept that, like him, we see the general safety record of British Rail as extremely good and believe that that should be clearly recognised? Secondly, will he accept that there is a need to meet any public anxiety on the position here? Can he say what is the general practice on keeping the door exits of carriages unlocked to enable passengers to get out in case of fire? Will he examine whether there are smoke detection precautions which are currently taken? The House would be grateful for guidance on those two last points.

Mr. Rodgers

The hon. Gentleman tempts me to comment, and I fully understand why he asks. But these matters are complicated. Even today, from what I have heard, there has been some conflict of evidence in public comment, and rather than say anything which might, in any way, mislead the House or prejudice the inquiry, I shall leave it as it now stands.

Mr. Penhaligon

It would appear that several of my constituents were killed in this accident, and as one of the few people in Britain to use this train virtually every week, I can assure the Secretary of State that the doors are locked between the carriages, that every door out of the train is locked other than where the attendant sits, and that the lower part of the windows which is supposed to open rarely does so. Indeed, most people are not even aware that it might open. I appreciate the Secretary of State's state- ment and thank him for it. But could not some assurance be given that some of these practices will be altered immediately and that we need not wait for an inquiry to report?

Mr. Rodgers

As I said in reply to the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Fowler), because of what seems to me some conflict of view, I do not wish to comment on the details of present practices. But the point made by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) is very important because this train will continue to be used up to and during the period of the inquiry, and I shall take steps accordingly.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I propose to call those hon. Members who have been rising to be called.

Mr. Peter Mills

I associate myself with what the right hon. Gentleman said about sympathy towards the relatives. I am deeply disturbed by the fact that the western region has most of the secondhand engines and carriages from other regions. In the inquiry, will he look very carefully into the age of the coaches that were used and into the western region's practice—of some years' standing—of using cast-off carriages and engines from other regions?

Mr. Rodgers

I should perhaps point out that I shall not conduct the inquiry myself. As the hon. Gentleman and the House know, such inquiries are conducted under well-established practices, and it is not for me to look into these questions. But I am sure that the inspecting officer will concern himself with questions such as those the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.

Mr. Nott

I wish to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon), who made a valuable point. I am sure that he and the Minister will agree that, ultimately, there is no way in which human error can be excluded, but the points raised by the hon. Member for Truro should be considered straight away.

The sleeper services to the far west are now bearing an enormous burden in that the sleeper train itself is twice, or sometimes more than twice, the length of most of the railway stations on the route. This is an innovation of British Rail. There used to be two such sleeper trains; now there is only one. Could the Minister require the inquiry to look into the question of the length of the trains and the problems that arise from that? I think this point is relevant.

Mr. Rodgers

I do not think that, strictly speaking, it is for me to require the inquiry to look into any particular point, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's remarks will be noticed. As it is to be a public inquiry, I think that all these matters should be fully explored.

Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop

Will the Secretary of State read the report by Colonel Rich, the Board of Trade inspector of railway accidents, in 1867–111 years ago—and ask the chairman of British Rail to do so? Colonel Rich condemned the practice of locking the doors at the ends of sleepers because it could lead to the deaths of passengers within in a fire. That was after the Irish Mail crash at Abergele on 20th August 1867. Should not we have learned by now?

Mr. Rodgers

I do not know yet what it is that we ought to have learned, because we do not know the cause of the accident. It would therefore be presumptuous on my part even to endorse the sentiment behind what the hon. Gentleman says. But of course we must learn by experience, and I am sure that the present inspector is fully aware of the long history of inquiries into accidents of this and other kinds.

Mr. Mudd

While in no way wishing to dissociate myself from the points made by my hon. Friend, I hope that the Secretary of State will take on board the fact that the locking of doors in these sleepers is a safety provision. It enables the sleeping car attendant to keep constant surveillance over passengers joining and leaving the train through one door rather than a variety of doors. It also reduces the opportunity for passengers unwittingly to fall on the lines during the night without anybody seeing them. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to take on board the fact that there is an important safety aspect to the locking of doors.

Mr. Rodgers

The hon. Gentleman confirms me in my wisdom. I should not commit myself to any positive view about any aspect of this matter at this stage.

Mr. Fry

Will the Secretary of State bear in mind that although he cannot, of course, prejudge anything about the causes of this accident, if, in the immediate future, it is found by British Rail that there are constructive measures that can be taken—such as those suggested by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon)—not only should these be taken but there should be a statement? We are at the beginning of the holiday season. Many people will be using sleepers and they will want some reassurance over the next few weeks.

Mr. Rodgers

I take that point. As I said in reply to the hon. Member for Truro, it is a real one and, irrespective of the cause of this accident, if there are anxieties which can be relieved or practices which could be changed simply to relieve anxieties without adverse effects, I very much hope that British Rail will take the necessary steps.

Mr. Spriggs

Will my right hon. Friend take into account the fact that quite a number of us who have spent a lifetime working in the railway service would prefer that the experts hold their inquiry and that the results of that inquiry be made available to hon. Members? Then we can ask for the chance to put forward our views to the British Railways Board.

Mr. Rodgers

My hon. Friend is right. The report will be published, of course, and it may well be that there are lessons in that report that the House will want to debate. It would be appropriate to do so then.