HC Deb 06 July 1978 vol 953 cc633-6
5. Mr. Shepherd

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied with the current rate of male recruitment to the police.

4. Mr Gow

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the total strength of the police force in England and Wales at the latest available date; what was the total at the same date in 1977; and by how many the total strength of the police has increased or decreased since 1st January 1978.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

At 31st May 1978, the strength of the police in England and Wales was 107,875. This compares with 109,338 on 31st May 1977. The net loss in strength from January to May this year was 326. The Government are anxious to reverse the trend both by encouraging recruitment and by reducing wastage.

Mr. Shepherd

Is the Home Secretary aware that recruitment is not fully offsetting the loss of experienced officers by retirement and resignation? Does he recognise that this is a matter of pay and conditions? Does he further recognise that it is the Government's respon- sibility to provide our country with the protection it needs? Will he implement the Edmund-Davies Committee's report in full when it is published?

Mr. Speaker

Order. There is a later Question on that matter on the Order Paper. Would the Home Secretary like to reply to two out of three?

Mr. Rees

I take your advice, Mr. Speaker. There is a problem of wastage. I hope that it is only pay that is the problem.

Mr. Gow

At a time when crime of every kind is increasing, does the Home Secretary take seriously the reduction in the manpower of the police, and will he understand that there is an urgent need to reverse this trend and that pay is a key element.

Mr. Rees

Of course pay is a key element. But I point out that there are 7,000 more policemen now than there were four years ago. A study of past figures shows that there have been ups and downs in police manpower. I simply say to the hon. Gentleman that if he thinks that it is only a question of pay and that there are no other problems for the police, he is wrong. When the report is published—I have sent it for publication—he will see that we were right to have a deep-seated report on this matter rather than play around as the Opposition were doing last autumn.

Mr. Hardy

Will my right hon. Friend repeat the figure he has just given and tell the House the precise number, in thousands, of policemen who are employed now compared with the number when the Government took office? Will he confirm that between 1970 and 1974 many Labour Party supporters were extremely concerned because the Conservative Government were extremely neglectful of police interests?

Mr. Rees

There are more policemen now than there were four years ago. I simply say that the problem is deeper than merely pay, even though that is vitally important. The reports we are having prepared are not only on pay but on negotiating machinery and the role of the Police Federation. There is something basic which needs to be looked at, and that is what we have embarked upon.

Mr. David Howell

I am glad the Home Secretary recognises that, although pay is vital, there are many other questions affecting the need for improved policing. Will he tell the House how he intends to tackle these problems? Does he not agree that one of them is to get closer co-operation between the police and the community at grass-roots level as well as at higher administrative level? Does he not agree, further, that another problem is the whole question of the role—and I hope it is a valuable one—of policewomen in the police service? These are major issues that need to be tackled. What is the Home Office doing about them?

Mr. Rees

The hon. Gentleman is wrong to say that part of the fundamental question is the role of policewomen. He is simply hooking on to something that has been in the press recently. It goes far deeper than that. I am not a Minister of the Interior. The Home Office is not a Ministry of the Interior. I believe that chief constables are arranging for closer contact with the community throughout the country.

Mr. Rose

Will my right hon. Friend accept, notwithstanding the increase in numbers and the difficulties and constraints of the pay guidelines, that there could be a tremendous crisis of morale in the police force, which could be dangerous to a democratic society? Will he recognise that it is vitally important, therefore, that the Edmund-Davies report be implemented as soon as possible? Will he urge the Cabinet to find a method of implementing it so as to prevent wastage?

Mr. Speaker

Order. I have already pulled up another hon. Gentleman. Question No. 15 asks the Secretary of State about implementation of the Edmund-Davies report. The hon. Gentleman has already asked two supplementary questions on that Question.

Mr. Rose

Will my right hon. Friend take action to prevent wastage and increase recruitment?

Mr. Rees

Yes, I certainly will do that. It is a major part of my job. But the matter which we are not yet going to discuss is an important part of that.

Mr. Mayhew

Does the Home Secretary think that the answer given on 29th June, showing that resignations from the police in the first quarter of this year were 30 per cent. up on last year and 140 per cent. up on the year before, shows confidence in his administration of his office?

Mr. Rees

I do not believe that it has to do with the competence of my administration. If the hon. and learned Gentleman believes that, he knows nothing about the problems in the police force. I have talked to many policemen recently. They are getting fed up with the way in which law and order is becoming entangled with a populist political policy.