HC Deb 19 January 1978 vol 942 cc655-7
Q1. Mr. Nicholas Winterton

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 19th January 1978.

The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.

Mr. Winterton

I am grateful to the Prime Minister for that reply. Will he, as Leader and major spokesman of the present Government, indicate whether his Government are still determined later this year to return to free collective bargaining?

The Prime Minister

I shall not be discussing that among my official engagements today.

Mr. Gould

Has my right hon. Friend seen today's reports that the EEC Commission believes that the temporary employment subsidy is contrary to the Treaty of Rome? Does he accept that that subsidy is far and away the most valuable and effective measure to protect jobs introduced by the Government? Will he give an assurance that they will resist that interference?

The Prime Minister

That was not on the agenda, but it was in this morning's newspapers, so I prepared for the supplementary question. I was very pleased to see that the Commissioner said that he wanted an amicable and constructive solution to this problem. So do I. We want one that will enable us to keep in jobs those whom the temporary employment subsidy is helping. That is what we shall insist on.

Mrs. Thatcher

Will the Prime Minister answer the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton)? The Prime Minister will be aware that he has made a large number of pronouncements about free collective bargaining. In February he said that free collective bargaining meant free collec tive chaos. In July he said that we had returned to free collective bargaining. He then said that we had 10 per cent. annual wage increases plus blacklisting. Now he seems to be working towards 5 per cent. wage increases plus blacklisting. Is he not really saying to the trade unions that as long as he is Prime Minister there will be no return to the traditional role of free collective bargaining?

The Prime Minister

I am very grateful to the right hon. Lady for her careful study of my remarks. I hope that she will continue it. As regards the position of collective bargaining, I am also very happy to see the Conservative Party espousing this cause—[Hon. Members: "Does the right hon. Gentleman?"]—which is, of course, in marked contrast to some of the statements that appeared in "The Right Approach" when it was published last year. But I shall not linger on that.

If the right hon. Lady wishes to peruse my statements on this and all the texts, I hope that she will also remember that I said that free collective bargaining was a very poor weapon—or words to that effect—for securing justice. But I said that up to that moment—perhaps she will remember this as she goes on with the quotations—no one had suggested a better system, and I did not know one.

Mrs. Thatcher

The Prime Minister will recollect that he said that free collective bargaining was a test of the wisdom of democracy. Therefore, is free collective bargaining his policy or not?

The Prime Minister

I think that it is a test of the wisdom of democracy. That is why I constantly seek to persuade—[Interruption.] The Opposition are really fairly irrelevant in this debate. I constantly try to persuade and convince trade unionists, with a fair degree of success, that moderate wage claims based on productivity are more likely to produce a real improvement in the standard of life than are exaggerated and runaway wage claims. If the right hon. Lady disagrees with that, perhaps she will say so.

Mr. Atkinson

I appreciate that the Prime Minister would not normally fix an official meeting with the Leader of the Opposition, but will he say whether she has indicated to him her views about the Conservative-controlled local authorities throughout the country, particularly the GLC and those in the Greater London area, which have now declared their intention to bring about a drastic reduction in the number of people employed by local authorities? This could have a serious effect on employment levels in the public sector. If the Leader of the Opposition has not indicated whether she agrees with such a policy throughout the country, will my right hon. Friend tell her that the Government will do everything possible to resist this butchering of local authority staffs?

The Prime Minister

No, Sir, I have not received any approach from the right hon. Lady, but I should be happy to have conversations with her at any time. The staffing arrangements of local authorities are a matter for them and must remain a matter for them. But I hope that staffs will be maintained at a level which will provide the essential infrastructure of our social and other public services.