HC Deb 12 January 1978 vol 941 cc1998-2001

Again considered in Committee.

Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.

Mr. Fitt

As we take this decision tonight, we must be ever mindful of what will happen in Northern Ireland. A Conservative spokesman said that our decision—

Mr. Humphrey Atkins (Spelthorne)

On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. Under what authority are the proceedings of this Committee going on after 10 o'clock?

The Second Deputy Chairman (Mr. Bryant-Godman Irvine)

I called the Prime Minister to move his motion, and the motion was moved.

Mr. Humphrey Atkins

I thought that I heard the motion being moved "That the Committee beg leave to report Progress and ask leave to sit again". You then took the voices. But, with respect, that does not authorise the Committee to go on after 10 o'clock.

The Second Deputy Chairman

I asked the Prime Minister to move his motion at 10 o'clock.

Mr. Walter Harrison (Treasurer of Her Majesty's Household)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. The motion in the name of the Prime Minister was moved, and there were shouts of "Aye". There was one call of "No" which was not repeated, and we then again shouted "Aye" in the name of the Prime Minister. There was no challenge to that.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. The motion which was put to the House was "That the Committee beg leave to report Progress and ask leave to sit again". I shouted "No" to that because I wanted the vote on this amendment to take place tonight. But that was the motion. It was not the Prime Minister's motion that was put to the House.

Mr. Walter Harrison

Further to that point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. The Question which was put to the House was, without any doubt, in the name of the Prime Minister, and we voted upon that. The Opposition did not negative that.

The Second Deputy Chairman

The first thing that has to happen is that the Whip reports Progress. The Chair then calls upon the Prime Minister, and the motion on the Order Paper is put to the House. That was the motion that I put to the House, and I got the impression that it was approved.

Mr. Powell

Painful though it be to disagree with the recollection of the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Harrison), I must point out that the Question put on which there were dissenting voices was distinctly "That the Committee do report Progress and ask leave to sit again." That was quite distinct from the reporting of Progress by the Whip, which is, of course, necessary at the beginning of those proceedings. But it was to the motion to report Progress that the voices were called.

The Second Deputy Chairman

I was under the impression that the motion had been accepted, and I then called the Prime Minister. If that is incorrect—

Mr. Walter Harrison

Further to the point of order. Mr. Godman Irvine. As far as I am concerned, both issues were put.

Mr. Humphrey Atkins

No.

Mr. Walter Harrison

Well, if both issues were not put on behalf of the Government Front Bench I shall accept both.—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Atkins) and I have understandings. Whether we are in Committee or not in Committee, with all the usual channels working, I am certain that, if it were proposed to report Progress, that would be readily accepted, but I am pointing out that, so far as I was concerned, we on the Government Front Bench heard the two matters put. I am being quite honest with the Committee. However, on the issue of reporting Progress, I would accept that, both in the name of the Prime Minister and all the rest of it, and suggest that we ask leave to sit again.

Mr. Humphrey Atkins

Further to that point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. In the light of what the Deputy Chief Whip has said, I think that there has been some confusion. It is the recollection of one part of the Committee that the motion enabling the Committee to sit on after 10 o'clock—I dare say that it may be acceptable, though I do not know—was never actually put, yet here we are, at six minutes past ten, without a motion having been approved by the House to enable us to sit after 10 o'clock.

The Government Deputy Chief Whip has said that he would be prepared to accept a motion that we report Progress and ask leave to sit again. With respect, I suggest that perhaps that is the best thing to do, that we stop now and continue on another occasion.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Further to that point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. I sat here listening, I know what was intended, and I think that it would be best—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If hon. Members who have just come in would listen, I should be obliged. May I put this to you, Mr. Godman Irvine? We had in mind that we would listen to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), who speaks with a knowledge of Northern Ireland, as do hon. Members who speak from the Bench opposite. We felt that the debate was becoming a little hilarious, which did not suit the tone of the problem of Northern Ireland, and what we had in mind to do was to wait for my hon. Friend's speech to finish and then to move to report Progress.

An error seems to have slipped in, and my right hon. Friend the Deputy Chief Whip has attempted, quite understandably, to get out of that situation. But, as I say, the Government's intention was to move to report Progress in about 10 minutes. I suggest, however, that we accept the situation now, and I am perfectly ready to move to report Progress. If the Committee is agreeable, we shall continue with the matter on the next occasion. It would have happened in 10 minutes or so, and I think it best to accept it now.

To report Progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Walter Harrison.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again tomorrow.