§ 3.32 p.m.
§ Mr. Tim Smith (Ashfield)I beg to move
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make further provision for tenants of dwellings owned by local authorities and other housing bodies to acquire the ownership of their homes.1236 The existing provisions, which consist of Section 104 of the Housing Act 1957 and general consents given in departmental circulars subsequently, are inadequate in two respects. First, the sale of council houses is at present discouraged by the current Government Circular 70/74, and the maximum discount is limited to 20 per cent., except in exceptional circumstances, where the figure may be 30 per cent.Secondly the present provisions do not require local authorities to sell council houses; they merely permit them to do so. Those of my constituents and others who have the misfortune to live in districts controlled by the Labour Party are denied that opportunity altogether. The feeling of frustration in the Ashfield district was heightened last week by the rejection of council house sales by the housing services committee of the council. The best argument in favour of my Bill is that it has overwhelming public support. I wish to point out that 85 per cent. of all voters support this policy, and yet for doctrinaire reasons it is rejected out of hand by Labour councils, including my own.
This Bill would give tenants of council houses the right to buy the freehold and tenants of flats the right to buy the leasehold. The only type of accommodation excluded from the ambit of the Bill would be that designed specifically for the old and the disabled.
The Bill would provide a three-year residential qualification. After living in a house or flat for three years, a tenant would have the right to buy the property at a discount of 33 per cent. on the market value. This percentage discount would be increased by one for each year of tenancy in excess of three years to a maximum of 50 per cent. for a tenant of 20 years' standing. There would be an overriding provision to the effect that the selling price would not be less than the historic cost of the property.
The Bill would also provide for a five-year pre-emption period. During that period if the owner wished to sell the property the local authority would have the right to repurchase at the original selling price in the first year, plus 20 per cent. of the difference between that price and market value for each subsequent year.
Conservatives believe in both owner-occupation and council housing. We want 1237 more people to become owner-occupiers because that is what they aspire to. At the same time, we want to give council tenants more rights. In particular, we want to remove the artificial distinction that people make between private and council estates. Selling council houses and giving council tenants a tenants' charter would go a long way towards achieving that objective.
Council housing is based on the principle of providing homes for those in the greatest need. There are now nearly 7 million dwellings rented from local authorities or new town corporations. To describe nearly 7 million families as being in the greatest need is clearly nonsense. Many would like to buy, and they should be given the opportunity to do so.
This one measure would do more for the working class of the country than all the nationalisation and industrial relations legislation of this Government which, as I understand it, is intended to benefit the working class. No longer would people who exercised their right to buy their property have to pay rent or complain to me about the failure of the council to do their repairs. They would own a substantial capital asset and they would benefit from any appreciation in its value. Not only would they do the repairs themselves; they would make improvements knowing that only they would benefit.
The sale of council houses also generates substantial revenue gains. It is difficult to quantify these precisely, but we know that the average subsidy per council dwelling is expected to be £228 in 1977–78 compared with an average per owner-occupied dwelling of £117.
The arguments normally put up against the sale of council houses are all rather feeble. It is said that it would not add to the housing stock. That is so—but it would not detract from it either. What it would do is make available to local authorities the resources to help those in real need. For example, in Ashfield, this would be the elderly. Secondly, it is said that the number of relets is reduced. A total of 3 per cent. of the existing stock is relet every year so that that argument has some validity, although the practical effect would be minimal. The resources made available could, however, actually increase the 1238 number of new lettings if that were found to be necessary. In practice, this argument would probably prove to be without substance.
Thirdly, it is said that the best council houses would be bought—a highly perceptive argument. Although relative attractiveness would no doubt be reflected in the price, few multi-storey flats, we are told, would be purchased. No doubt this is so, but it is a sad commentary on the Labour councils that built them, not a reason for not giving the right to buy.
The gains from the approach taken by this Bill are clear. First, there would be a massive redistribution of wealth in the community—mainly from the State to the working class. Secondly, individual freedom would be extended to many who are presently subject to the petty rules and restrictions of bureaucracy. Thirdly, it would give security, stability and a sense of responsibility to thousands of new owner-occupiers.
I end by quoting from a letter which I received this morning:
Like many other Labour voters, we have lived in a council house for 29 years and would dearly like to purchase and just own a few bricks. Margaret Thatcher was right, the joy of possession would be a dream come true.
§ 3.39 p.m.
§ Mr. Frank Allaun (Salford, East)rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerIs the hon. Gentleman seeking to oppose?
§ Mr. AllaunYes, Mr. Speaker. Far from being a panacea, the sale of council houses would seriously worsen the housing situation in our country. Nothing would be more damaging to the housing prospects of ordinary families than if this Conservative Party shibboleth were widely applied.
First, I say that because the Bill would not produce one extra house. Secondly, I say it because most successful applicants for council houses do not obtain a new council house but a relet. They get a council house which has been vacated through the death of a previous tenant or by the tenant moving to another town or buying a private house. The total stock of council houses is reduced thereby and simultaneously the pool for relets is also reduced—[HON. MEMBERS: 1239 "No."] Oh yes, that is true. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not true."] I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will allow for injury time because of interruptions in my speech. Therefore, the pathetic queue of homeless is lengthened. That is only part of the disastrous effect.
Which council houses would be sold? Certainly not the nice—[HON. MEMBERS: "Get on with it "]—There is plenty of time, because I hope that Mr. Speaker will allow for the interruptions.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We are all anxious to get on to the main business of the day. I have a long list of hon. Members who wish to speak in that debate. I suggest that the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) be heard in reasonable silence.
§ Mr. AllaunWhich houses would be sold? I suggest that the best houses would be sold—those with gardens, for instance. The mother living on the sixteenth story of a multi-storey block with young children cannot keep her eyes on the child playing in the playground at the foot of the block of flats, even if there is in fact, a playground. Consequently, the children are cooped up for the whole of the day. The passionate hope of such a mother is to get a transfer to a house with a bit of garden back and front. She will be stuck in that position in the block of flats indefinitely if her hopes of obtaining that house are blocked by the sale of the best houses. Indeed, most progressive councils are now saying that mothers with children under 10 years should not be in multi-storey blocks at all.
It is the dross, the worst, the least attractive, council houses that would be left behind. In those houses would be concentrated the aged, the unemployed, the disabled and the one-parent families. Our priceless national asset of 6½ million council houses to which the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Smith) referred, would deteriorate. Areas in this country would begin to resemble certain areas in America—the welfare housing estates, the ghettos of the urban areas.
A more socially divisive policy is hard to imagine. To flog the best council houses would be just about as sensible as instructing Notts Forest to sell off its forward line. It would have a similar effect.
1240 In some cases it is a good bargain for the individual tenant to buy his own house, but it a bad bargain for the community because it costs far more today to build a new council house. It costs about £10,000 which is far more than the price the council receives for the old house. Corporations would lose both capital and revenue. They would lose rents from those houses.
§ Mr. Russell Kerr (Feltham and Heston)Listen, or you will go out as stupid as you came in.
§ Mr. AllaunCouncils would lose the rents from houses that were built cheaply many years ago for approximately £300. Today council rents are pooled, so that the rents from the older houses, which have been substantially increased, keep down the rents for the new houses, which would otherwise be so expensive that tenants could not afford to go into them. Therefore, there would be a net loss to the housing revenue account, which would result in higher rents being imposed on all the other tenants.
It is clear that most tenants cannot afford to buy their own house by paying cash. The experience of Birmingham and elsewhere is that nine out of ten tenants buying a council house obtain a council mortgage. That means that councils would have little money to provide mortgages for those who need them to buy private houses because the building societies are too restrictive in granting mortgages on the cheaper, older type of house. That would be bad for the taxpayers as there would be a loss of revenue to the Chancellor through income tax relief on mortgages.
Out of 6½ million houses only 140,000 have been sold in seven years, despite having Conservative councils and a Conservative Government for three of those years. The main reason is that the tenants cannot afford to buy. We have Conservative Members and councillors proposing to sell off, as the Bill does, council houses at a 33 per cent. discount, or even a 50 per cent. discount. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), who should know better, proposes to give them away. Some of these Conservative Members and councillors are landlords. Would they be prepared to give away their own houses?
1241 After five years the hon. Gentleman proposes in his Bill—it is official Conservative Party policy—to sell off the houses to anyone. That means that after five years anybody could buy the house, regardless of priority cases. Therefore, money would come before need. Moreover, the gentleman who sold the house could make a profit, a profit which should have gone to the community.
The truth is that there are 8 million men, women and children living in terrible conditions. Most of those people are dependent on council houses because they cannot afford to buy, even with a mortgage. I know one lady who has been on a council waiting list for 28 years. Would the hon. Gentleman keep her waiting even longer? The council concerned is suffering from a terrible housing inheritance. To parody a famous song, "There's a long, long time awaiting for the home of their dreams". By reducing the housing stock through this municipal asset-stripping, we should extend homelessness. We need more council houses, not fewer.
I conclude—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear".] I would have concluded earlier if Opposition Members had allowed me
§ to do so. This scheme has become part of Conservative Party ideology. Many Conservative Members and councillors are hostile to council housing and to council tenants. We believe both in council housing and in owner-occupation, which are both infinitely preferable to private landlordism.
§ Labour policy is to oppose the sale of council housing except in areas where there is no shortage, and such areas are precious few. Speaking personally, I would go further and prohibit such sales, but that is not what we are discussing today. I say that because Conservative councils do not take much notice of what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State says. However, that is not the issue.
§ I ask the House to defeat this reactionary Bill. I ask hon. Members to throw out the Bill with a majority vote against it.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at Commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 207, Noes 219.
1245| Division No. 100] | AYES | [3.49 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Hordern, Peter |
| Alison, Michael | Emery, Peter | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Arnold, Tom | Eyre, Reginald | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Fairbairn, Nicholas | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Fairgrieve, Russell | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Baker, Kenneth | Farr, John | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Banks, Robert | Fell, Anthony | Hurd, Douglas |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | James, David |
| Biffen, John | Fookes, Miss Janet | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | Jessel, Toby |
| Blaker, Peter | Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Fry, Peter | Jones, Arthur (Daventry) |
| Bottomley, Peter | Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Jopling, Michael |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) | Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham) | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Britton, Leon | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C | Glyn, Dr Alan | Kimball, Marcus |
| Brooke, Peter | Goodhew, Victor | King, Evelyn (South Dorset) |
| Brotherton, Michael | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | King, Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Gray, Hamish | Knox, David |
| Buck, Antony | Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Lamont, Norman |
| Budgen, Nick | Grist, Ian | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Grylls, Michael | Latham, Michael (Melton) |
| Burden, F. A. | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Lawson, Nigel |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Hampson, Dr Keith | Le Merchant, Spencer |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Hannam, John | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Clark William (Croydon S) | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Cockcroft, John | Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss | Luce, Richard |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Haselhurst, Alan | McAdden, Sir Stephen |
| Cope, John | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | McCrindle, Robert |
| Cormack, Patrick | Hawkins, Paul | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford) | Hayhoe, Barney | MacGregor, John |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Heath, Rt Hon Edward | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Hicks, Robert | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) |
| Durant, Tony | Higgins, Terence L. | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) |
| Dykes, Hugh | Hodgson, Robin | Madel, David |
| Marten, Neil | Peyton, Rt Hon John | Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) |
| Mates, Michael | Pink, R. Bonner | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald |
| Mather, Carol | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Maude, Angus | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Stokes, John |
| Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald | Prior, Rt Hon James | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Mawby, Ray | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Tapsell, Peter |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Raison, Timothy | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Mayhew, Patrick | Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Tebbit, Norman |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Mills, Peter | Rhodes, James R. | Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S) |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Thompson, George |
| Moate, Roger | Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Trotter, Neville |
| Molyneaux, James | Rifkind, Malcolm | Van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Monro, Hector | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Viggers, Peter |
| Moore, John (Croydon C) | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) | Wakeham, John |
| More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Sainsbury, Tim | Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester) |
| Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral | St John-Stevas, Norman | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Morris, Michael (Northampton S) | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Walters, Dennis |
| Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Shepherd, Colin | Watt, Hamish |
| Neave, Airey | Silvester, Fred | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Nelson, Anthony | Sims, Roger | Welsh, Andrew |
| Neubert, Michael | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Newton, Tony | Speed, Keith | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Nott, John | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Onslow, Cranley | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) | Younger, Hon George |
| Oppenheim, Mrs Sally | Sproat, Iain | |
| Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Stainton, Keith | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Page, Richard (Workington) | Stanbrook, Ivor | Mr. Tim Smith and |
| Parkinson, Cecil | Stanley, John | Mr. Ian Gow. |
| Percival, Ian | ||
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Doig, Peter | Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) |
| Allaun, Frank | Dormand, J. D. | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Janner, Greville |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Dunnett, Jack | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Ashley, Jack | Eadie, Alex | Jeger, Mrs Lena |
| Ashton, Joe | Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | English, Michael | John, Brynmor |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Ennals, Rt Hon David | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Bates, Alf | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) |
| Beith, A. J. | Evans, John (Newton) | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Flannery, Martin | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Kelley, Richard |
| Bishop, Rt Hon Edward | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Kerr, Russell |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Forrester, John | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) | Kinnock, Neil |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Lambie, David |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Freud, Clement | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) |
| Bradley, Tom | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Garrett, W. E. (Wailsend) | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | George, Bruce | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Buchan, Norman | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Lipton, Marcus |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Golding, John | Litterick, Tom |
| Campbell, Ian | Gould, Bryan | Lomas, Kenneth |
| Canavan, Dennis | Gourlay, Harry | Loyden, Eddie |
| Carmichael, Neil | Graham, Ted | Luard, Evan |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson |
| Cartwright, John | Grant, John (Islington C) | McCartney, Hugh |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Grocott, Bruce | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | McElhone, Frank |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | MacFarquhar, Roderick |
| Cohen, Stanley | Hardy, Peter | Maclennan, Robert |
| Coleman, Donald | Harper, Joseph | McNamara, Kevin |
| Colquhoun, Ms Maureen | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Madden, Max |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Corbett, Robin | Hayman, Mrs Helene | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Cowans, Harry | Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Mendelson, John |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Heffer, Eric S. | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Hooley, Frank | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Crowther Stan (Rotherham) | Hooson, Emlyn | Mitchell, Austin |
| Cryer, Bob | Horam, John | Molloy, William |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) | Moonman, Eric |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Davidson, Arthur | Huckfield, Les | Morris, Rt Hon Charles R. |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Huges, Mark (Durham) | Moyle, Rt Hon Roland |
| Deakins, Eric | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Newens, Stanley |
| Dell, Rt Hon Edmund | Hunter, Adam | Noble, Mike |
| Oakes, Gordon | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Ogden, Eric | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| O'Halloran, Michael | Silverman, Julius | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Orbach, Maurice | Skinner, Dennis | Ward, Michael |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Smith, Rt Hon John (N Lanarkshire) | Watkins, David |
| Park, George | Snape, Peter | Weetch, Ken |
| Parker, John | Spearing, Nigel | White, James (Pollok) |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Spriggs, Leslie | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Pendry, Tom | Stallard, A. W. | Whitlock, William |
| Penhaligon, David | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Phipps, Dr Colin | Stoddart, David | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Price, C. (Lewisham W) | Stott, Roger | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Price, William (Rugby) | Strang, Gavin | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Radice, Giles | Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Richardson, Miss Jo | Swain, Thomas | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Rooker, J. W. | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) | Woof, Robert |
| Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Tierney, Sydney | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Sandelson, Neville | Tinn, James | |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Tomlinson, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. | Mr. George Rodgers and |
| Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) | Mr. Ioan Evans. |
| Shore. Rt Hon Peter |
§ Question accordingly negatived.