HC Deb 02 February 1978 vol 943 cc677-9
11. Mr. MacKay

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he is taking to combat the increase in crimes of violence committed in the cities of the United Kingdom.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

I have already announced increased expenditure on law and order services to support the police with whom rests the immediate responsibility for preventing and detecting crime. The Government will continue to ensure that adequate powers are available to the courts.

Mr. MacKay

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that one of the most important deterrents is detection? Further, does he agree that the morale of the police at present, especially because of their pay, has meant that they are disastrously undermanned, with the result that the citizens of many cities, including Birmingham, fear to walk the streets at night and are not being adequately protected by us?

Mr. Rees

I am sure that detection is a major factor. I advise the hon. Gentleman—I have done so since I have been Home Secretary—to read around on the subject. It is not only a matter of detection. It is not only a matter of the penalties that are provided. For example, I found that in Soviet Russia there is far less crime than in America. That did not turn me into a Communist, or make me a Friedman capitalist, but it made me realise that there is more to this subject than we sometimes think.

I hope that something will be done about police pay, but I also hope that the hon. Gentleman will not run away with the idea that if the police receive more pay large numbers of policemen will appear on the streets and the problems with which he is concerned will disappear. I do not think that that will happen.

Mr. Heffer

Will my right hon. Friend tell me whether the Merseyside police force is under strength, by how much it is under strength, and what activities are being undertaken to bring it up to strength?

Mr. Rees

I do not have the Merseyside figures with me. I can say that police forces are under strength. Much depends on what is meant by "establishment" Pay is undoubtedly a factor in recruitment. In some parts of the country it is extremely difficult to recruit whatever remuneration is offered. I hope that we shall consider these matters more widely in the discussions that will take place in the next couple of years about the role of the police and recruitment. People are not rushing to join the police.

Mr. Cope

Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that it was wise of his predecessor to reduce from eight weeks to six weeks the time normally spent by offenders in detention centres when they are in the appropriate age bracket?

Mr. Rees

That is a judgment on the period of a fortnight. In the discussions that have taken place on a wider front, I see no reason to believe that this decision was a mistake. The error that we all make—I put myself in this category—is to try to find a single solution to the problem. We shall never do so. There is a collection of answers, which goes across a wide spectrum.

Mr. Ioan Evans

In considering the causes, will my right hon. Friend turn to the effect that television is having on young people, especially where, night after night, we are getting a surfeit of violence in the programmes?

Mr. Rees

One of my responsibilities, as my hon. Friend knows, lies with television and broadcasting. There have been a number of interesting reports. However, the answers that they offer are conflicting. There is one school of thought that takes the view that violence shown on television gets it out of one's system. The other school of thought believes that one learns from it. I do not know the answer. When I manage to watch television in the evening, my feeling is that an enormous amount of violence takes place, and I feel that that must be a factor.

Mr. Whitelaw

The right hon. Gentleman said that an increase in police pay would not automatically result in more police on the beat. That may be true, but is not the other side of the case equally dangerous and true, namely, that a lack of increase in pay is resulting in fewer police on the beat all the time? When does the right hon. Gentleman hope to get the report of Lord Edmund-Davies's Committee?

Mr. Rees

I cannot say when I shall get it, but I want a report that will stand the test of time. The 1961 Report did that. My predecessor has been referred to. In the statutory policy of a couple of years ago an arrangement was specially made with the police that they received a 30 per cent. pay increase when others had far less. My predecessor argued to the Cabinet that that was vital to the police, and he was right, but that did not solve the problem of law and order. All that I am arguing is that I do not think that it will do so next time, either.