Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis

HC Deb 02 February 1978 vol 943 cc672-4

7. Mr. Sims

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he next expects to meet the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis.

17. Mr. Ashley

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how often he met the Metropolitan Police Commissioner in 1977.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

I met the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis on 19 occasions during 1977. I last met him yesterday and have no immediate plans for a further meeting.

Mr. Sims

Did the right hon. Gentleman discuss with the Commissioner the present strength of the Metropolitan Police, which is numerically no higher than it was 50 years ago and is smaller as a proportion of the national police force? Will he confirm that at present there is a net outflow from the Metropolitan Police, whilst other forces are having less difficulty in obtaining recruits? Does not this indicate that there is an urgent need for a special approach to recruiting to the Metropolitan Police?

Mr. Rees

The Edmund-Davies Committee is meeting and discussing a wide variety of matters, and I imagine that that is one of them. I think that it would be better to wait and see what the committee suggests. I simply observe that there are differences of view between the forces in the provinces and the Metropolitan forces on this matter. Therefore, I would rather wait until I receive the report. Then we can look at the wider issues.

Mr. Christopher Price

On how many of those occasions in 1977 and this year did my right hon. Friend discuss the National Front march in Lewisham and its aftermath? Does he agree, in retrospect, that the Commissioner made an error of judgment in not applying to have that march banned? Has my right hon. Friend completed his review of the legal position? Can he announce any future legislation to tighten up the Public Order Act?

Mr. Rees

I begin with the Public Order Act and the wider aspects resulting from its amendment by the Race Relations Act. I have talked to the chief officers concerned, and it is emerging that there could be some tightening up, if that is the right expression. My own view is that it would not make much difference to the situation, if one is simply considering the Public Order Act. I have discussed the matter with the Commissioner at my regular meetings with him, and on a much more day-to-day basis my Department discusses these matters with Scotland Yard.

My view is that if the Commissioner had decided to ban the march at Lewisham he would have been saying, in effect, that all marches in the Metropolitan area would have to be banned. The question is whether law and order can be maintained, and if the answer is "No" the march, whatever it was, would have to be banned every time that was the answer.

Mr. Dykes

When the Home Secretary next meets Commissioner McNee will he discuss with him the official policy, which is to allow the local Press to have access to police logs of reported crimes in local stations so that, for example, automatic Press publicity can be given to burglaries and other such crimes without consulting the people affected?

Mr. Rees

I shall look into that. It had not been brought to my notice.

Mr. Corbett

Will my right hon. Friend draw the Commissioner's attention to the Fisher Report on the Confait case and the comments in the report that some of the rules and directions in the Judges' Rules did not seem to be known by police officers? Will he encourage the Commissioner to ensure that every constable in the Metropolitan force is aware of those rules and directions?

Mr. Rees

I shall certainly do that. There is a later Question on which the matter more specifically arises. The Com missioner has read the report and is taking steps accordingly.

Mr. Whitelaw

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I agree with him when he says that there are great dangers in banning marches by one organisation and not regarding what many other organisations may do at the same time? Provocation in these matters is very dangerous, but the right to march must be preserved, and the law should be preserved. That is the job of the Metropolitan Commissioner.

Mr. Rees

That is so, but the law was drawn up in 1936, as a result of the then Fascist marches—the Mosley marches in the East End of London—and it follows that there must be occasions on which Parliament would think it right to ban a march. Otherwise, there is no point in having the law. Marches have been banned on a number of occasions. There is a difficult judgment to make in all this. I am saying that within the Metropolitan area a judgment on one march, simply on the basis of the preservation of law and order, would have ramifications for all marches. The Commissioner must take that into account in making his recommendation to me.