FIREMEN (RHYL) (Hansard, 14 December 1978)

§ Sir Anthony Meyer (Flint, West)

The story of the seven Rhyl firemen who refused to go on strike during the firemen's dispute at the end of last year has had a great deal of publicity. I have throughout given my total support to the seven non-strikers, and I certainly do not intend to withdraw or qualify that support now. But I want to help these men, not to exploit their misfortunes for political purposes. It is in that spirit that I raise this 1175 matter tonight. I hope that the Minister will reply in the same spirit

. Far and away the best way to help would be to make it possible for these seven men to resume their duties at Rhyl fire station. At present it is not possible for them to do so. Since the collapse of the strike and the return to work in February 1978, the seven non-strikers, who were split into groups of two by their fire officers, have been excluded from messing arrangements, expelled from the sports club at the station, and sent to Coventry by their colleagues.

A fireman's work involves waiting around at the station for an emergency. In any kind of continuous employment, the conditions which the seven have had to endure would be intensely unpleasant. In the fire service such conditions are not bearable for people with ordinary human emotions. The consequence is that the seven have gradually been driven away from attendance at the station and have gone on the sick list. I do not know how much longer they can remain on the sick list in this way. The longer they stay off work, the more demoralised they become. On the other hand, the possibility that for one reason or another they will lose their entitlement to be registered as sick and unfit for duty could be even more damaging to their psychological well-being.

The seven bear very little resentment against their colleagues, nor even against the Fire Brigades Union, of which they are all members. Their anger is directed almost entirely towards their officers and towards the Clwyd fire authority, which, in their view, not only did nothing to prevent victimisation in breach of the terms on which the strike was finally settled but which, as they see it, made it plain throughout the dispute that it deplored the refusal of the seven to join in the strike. I can understand their feelings on this. But I must add that the attitude of the Clwyd fire authority merely reflects that of Ministers who studiously refrained from giving any encouragement or even advice to those firemen throughout the country who disobeyed the union's strike call.

This aspect of the matter has the gravest implications for the whole of the Government's future strategy. That ex- 1176 plains why in the title of this Adjournment debate I spoke of the consequences for Government industrial policy ". During the coming winter, there are certain to be strikes and threats of strikes in support of wage claims that exceed the Government's 5 per cent norm. Some of these strikes will occur in essential services such as power supplies, water, sewerage and the Health Service, involving direct and immediate threats to life and safety. What will be the attitude of the Government then? Will they encourage the workers in these essential services to obey their union call to strike? Or will they encourage those like the seven Rhyl firemen who put their duty to save lives before their loyalty to their union? This is a vast and vital question, which I am at present pursuing with the Prime Minister. I can hardly expect the Minister to be specific where the Prime Minister has so far been very evasive. I shall not therefore pursue this aspect of the matter further tonight.

Nor am I seeking to allocate blame for the plight of the seven Rhyl firemen. What I want to do, with the help of the Minister, if she will, is to seek a way out of this unhappy affair. If there is to be a lasting settlement, all parties will have to make concessions to the opposing point of view.

Let me begin with myself. I have had some hard things to say about the strikers and their union officials. If it will help in any way to secure a settlement, I will gladly withdraw those criticisms. What I cannot withdraw is my total support for the seven non-strikers until they have secured fair treatment. But it might help if the seven were to state publicly, perhaps in the form of some written declaration, what they are fully prepared to admit in private—namely, that the strikers have reasons to feel aggrieved at not receiving the 100 per cent. support of their colleagues in their forlorn battle for what they regard as a fair wage. For many years, the pay of firemen has been allowed to fall back. The example of workers in other industries or services where the health or safety of the public was at risk showed, and still shows, that the only way to get fair treatment from the Government or from local authorities is to threaten or to take industrial action. 1177 The Fire Brigades Union has an enviable record of responsibility and moderation, and it was only after much soul-searching that it eventually decided on a strike. Those firemen who obeyed the strike call had almost as agonising a struggle with their consciences as those who decided to disobey the call. Nor does anyone pretend that life on the picket line in winter is a picnic.

In the end, the strike was a failure and the terms on which it was settled were scarcely better than those which had been on offer before the strike began. In those circumstances, it is in no way surprising that the atmosphere at the return to work should have been especially bitter against those firemen who, by continuing to attend at the fire station throughout the strike, managed to draw full pay during the dispute and yet at the end got the benefit of the rise, however unsatisfactory that rise may have been.

After such events, only good leadership could have averted the men's obsession with their grievances and persuaded them to look towards a brighter future. Such leadership was lacking at almost every level in the Clwyd fire service. To make matters worse, there were one or two individuals of a peculiarly hard and unyielding disposition who conceived it to be their duty to revive the animosity of the men towards their non-striking colleagues if ever that animosity showed any signs of flagging. If things go on like this, this awful situation can only go on getting worse. We must all pull ourselves together. I have said that I am ready to withdraw anything which may be thought to have been wounding. I have raised the possibility of the seven making some formal acknowledgment of the breach of union solidarity which they have occasioned, but the main initiative for peace must come from the side of the union and the strikers. They must now begin once more to treat their nonstriking colleagues as fellow human beings, facing the same risks to life and limb in their daily work.

The trade union officials at all levels must exert their influence not to widen divisions but to narrow them. The fire authority must cease to sit helplessly on the sidelines, giving rise to the suspicion that its sympathies are all with the strikers, 1178 and use all its powers of leadership, if it has any, to effect a settlement. Perhaps the best way to begin would be by withdrawing the sanctions which have been imposed at Rhyl fire station on the one fireman, Alan Dyson, who himself went on strike but who has since protested at the treatment meted out to the seven and has in consequence been treated as harshly as they and subjected to the same discrimination.

I believe that everyone at Rhyl fire station, with at most one or two exceptions—but those, unfortunately, in key positions—wants to forget the past and recreate a happy and effective fire service. Men of good will in the town are taking effective steps to make this happen. I hope that the Minister will do what she can to contribute to that result. Perhaps we can give an example. Will she, from the Labour side, join me, from the Conservative side, in an earnest appeal to both sides in this dispute to work together to ensure that the people of Rhyl and district can sleep soundly in their beds at night?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Dr. Shirley Summer-skill)

The hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) has raised an important matter which has received a good deal of attention recently in the press. I thank him for giving me notice of the contents of his speech and I am glad to have the opportunity to make clear the position of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in relation to the events which he has described. I suggest that it will be helpful to the House, therefore, if I clarify at the outset a number of points which are fundamental to a proper understanding of the matter.

The provision of fire cover in England and Wales is the statutory responsibility of the local fire authorities—that is, the county and metropolitan county councils and the Greater London Council—which are required under the Fire Services Acts 1947 to 1959 to make provision for firefighting purposes in their areas and, in particular, to maintain a fire brigade of sufficient strength to meet efficiently all normal requirements. Subject to certain specific regulatory powers exercised by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, which relate to the operational efficiency 1179 of brigades, the day-to-day management and administration of their brigades are matters entirely for the fire authorities concerned and not ones in which my right hon. Friend has any authority to intervene.

Responsibility for determining pay and conditions of service of firemen, including the terms on which they are engaged, rests with individual fire authorities. Central negotiations are, however, conducted in the National Joint Council for Local Authorities' Fire Brigades, on which the fire authorities and the fire service staff organisations are represented. The Home Office is not represented on the National Joint Council and my right hon. Friend has no power to enforce, by regulations, the conditions of service and rates of pay upon which negotiations take place in the National Joint Council. However, the Home Office ensures that the employers on the council are made aware of the Government's assessment of the implications of particular claims and negotiations in relation to the Government's pay policy, which is directed at winning the battle against inflation.

The agreement which brought about an end to the firemen's strike and a return to work on 16th January 1978 was reached by both sides of the National Joint Council. It is important to be clear about the terms of that part of the agreement which related to the basis on which a resumption of normal working was to take place. The relevant part of the agreement reads as follows: The implementation of this agreement is contingent upon a resumption of full normal working, without any vicimisation or discrimination by any party against individuals or groups or industrial or other buildings or premises, and upon a resumption of normal use of all fire service equipment, appliances and premises. All parties undertake to use their best endeavours to achieve this. It is important to emphasise that the parties to the agreement were the representative bodies on the Natnonal Joint Council. My right hon. Friend was not a signatory to this agreement. Having made an agreement at national level, the representative bodies on the council informed their members of its terms. In accordance with the normal practice for implementing agreements for employees of local authorities, it was for the representatives locally—that is, the individual fire authorities as the employers and the 1180 local representatives of the staff organisations—to implement it.

During the strike some bitter things were said and done. This was the first national strike in the history of the fire service. As I am sure the House willl appreciate, some problems were inevitable following the resumption of normal working in the fire service after nine weeks of strike action. Indeed, the hon. Member has himself very fairly referred to the feeling of grievance which the striking firemen were bound to feel against their colleagues who refused to strike. Since the end of the strike, therefore, the first concern of the employers' and the employees' organisations has been to ensure a return to stability in the fire service. It has been reassuring to my right hon. Friend that the return to work has gone as smoothly as it has done. I have no doubt that the common sense and good will which have generally prevailed in most parts of the country, together with the full implementation of the second stage of the pay settlement by the employers, has contributed to this state of affairs.

It is against this background that I should like to turn to the seven firemen at Rhyl fire station who did not take part in the strike. I understand that five of the firemen are currently on sick leave from their duties, that the sixth fireman has been posted to duties at Colwyn Bay fire station and that the seventh fireman resigned his appointment. I should explain that this seventh fireman has presented a complaint against the Clwyd county council, alleging that he was unfairly dismissed, to an industrial tribunal. I understand that an industrial tribunal sitting at Colwyn Bay began hearing the complaint yesterday. I am sure that the hon. Member will understand that, until the determination of the industrial tribunal is known, it would not be right for me to comment on the particular circumstances of that case.

According to the Clwyd fire authority, following the national agreement which provided for a return to work at the termination of the strike, the council's representatives met representatives of the Clwyd county branch of the Fire Brigades Union to discuss the implementation of the agreement in the county's fire brigade. One of the conditions sought by the 1181 union representatives upon which they were prepared to recommend their members' return to work was that the firemen who had remained on duty at Rhyl should be divided between different watches. The fire authority agreed to divide the men between different watches. Its reasons for doing so were that it would not have been possible to form a complete watch from the non-striking firemen and the council was concerned that the brigade should return to work and provide normal fire cover as soon as possible. This the brigade did and commenced work in accordance with the national recommendation.

I understand that, subsequently, oral and written reports were made by four of the non-striking firemen to the effect that they had been subjected to victimisation and discrimination. The hon. Member has mentioned some of the incidents which took place. The allegations which were made by them can be summarised as follows. Pejorative notices relating to them had appeared on notice boards at the fire station; abusive stickers had been placed on their lockers; junior officers had acted oppressively during drills and these men had been excluded from their watch messing clubs and had been excluded also from the station recreation club.

I am informed that the fire authority holds firmly to the view that, in accordance with the terms of the settlement, it has used its best endeavours to ensure a return to normal working. All the allegations have been investigated most carefully by the chief fire officer and appropriate action has been taken in each case. Such action includes the removal of the notices and stickers, the issue of warnings to officers and other supervisory ranks as to their conduct towards the non-strikers, and measures generally designed to contain the situation. The fire authority is 1182 of the view that the exclusion of the men from the watch messing clubs and the recreation club appears to be exclusion from voluntary organisations for which the fire authority has no responsibility. The fire authority has also kept in touch with the employers' side secretariat of the National Joint Council and has, as appropriate, sought its advice.

I hope that, in the light of what I have said tonight, it will be understood that the matters which have been referred to in this debate are not ones in which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary or I have any locus to intervene. Any attempt at intervention by us would not necessarily be welcomed by the parties concerned. It would not be right to intervene in the day-to-day management and organisation of a brigade. This conflict in the fire service, as with any other local authority service, can be ended only with good will on the part of the employers and the trade union representatives concerned.

I am glad to know that the fire authority is still seeking further ways of resolving the difficulties. My right hon. Friend hopes that it will succeed in doing so before very long. To that end the debate tonight and the fair way in which the hon. Gentleman has spoken will, I am sure, assist both sides. I am sure that what the hon. Gentleman has said will be appreciated by both sides and by his constituents generally. As I believe that he made a helpful speech, I shall arrange for copies of the relevant extracts from the Official Report. to be sent to the Clwyd fire authority and to the Fire Brigades Union. I repeat that my right hon. Friend hopes that both sides will succeed very soon in finding a solution to the matter.