§ 5.27 a.m.
§ Mr. Hector Monro (Dumfries)I am very grateful to the Minister of State for being here at 5.30 a.m. to answer this debate after a long gruelling night in 522 which he has had to answer another debate. This is a miserable hour at which to start any debate. I think that it shows the enthusiasm of the House and of us both for sport.
Our last debate on sport was somewhat overshadowed by football hooliganism, but this time the debate is about the Sports Council grant and other moneys in the Estimate. Since that debate, there have been major changes in the personnel of the Sports Council. The House will join in the warm welcome to Mr. Dick Jeeps as chairman of the Sports Council and Mr. Emlyn Jones as director. I know that both will be of inestimable importance to sport in the years ahead. Equally warm thanks are due to Sir Robin Brook and Sir Walter Winterbottom on their retirement for what they did for sport during their term of office.
I think that this is the right moment, too, to give a welcome to Peter Heatley, of the Scottish Sports Council, and Jack Allan, of the Sports Council in Northern Ireland, on their appointments. Wales goes happily rolling along unchanged and as efficiently as ever. It is right, too, that the Minister and I should say how glad we both are that Mrs. Glen Haig has continued in the chair of the Central Council for Physical Recreation. She performs her task most successfully.
This morning we want to consider the Estimates and look at the progress of the Sports Council in relation to the annual grant and at what continuing inflation has meant in relation to that grant. It has certainly been a headache to governing bodies, sports clubs and individuals. The original grant for 1978–79 was £12.2 million, which was an increase of a mere £700,000 on the 1977–78 grant of £11.5 million That was the block grant for general purposes, which was obviously less than the sum required to keep up with inflation. That block grant still remains. But on 25th May 1978 another £2 million was announced by the Minister—£1 million, I understand, for inner city areas and youth sports programmes, and £1 million for schemes by the major football clubs. That makes £14.2 million, as in the Estimates.
I think it is important to accept that that extra £2 million is not exactly at the discretion of the Sports Council. The Minister's schemes, following consultation with the Sports Council, were detailed and 523 agreed by the Council. I am not suggesting that they were not worthy objectives, but I shall have two comments to make later. I think that we should also record another £1 million, announced this autumn, for urban deprivation, making a total of £15.2 million.
The comments that I make on the system of additional grants are that all money should be given to the Sports Council as a block grant at the beginning of the year for it to use at its discretion. I am sure that the Minister will have full confidence in the Sports Council to do just that. Obviously the close relationship that the Minister has with the Council will ensure that discussions take place on the Council's spending policy.
Secondly, as I am sure the Minister will appreciate, the making of announcements in June and the autumn make the financial year a terrible rush for the Sports Council to prepare proper plans to spend the money to its best advantage. Whilst there may be particular reasons for making the money available later in the year, it puts this great task on the Council to spend it before the end of the financial year.
Will the Minister, in reply, say what progress has been made with the schemes? Will all the money be spent in this financial year? Will he also be specific about the football grounds scheme? I hear that some all-weather pitches have been provided. Is the progress of these schemes as fast as he would like, and are matters developing in the way that he would wish?
I welcome the provision of money for urban deprivation, though I hope that the Minister will not forget rural deprivation. Young people in the countryside often lead miserable lives because they have no recreational facilities. I hope that the Minister will keep an eye on a fair balance.
Earlier this year, when I made a speech covering urban deprivation—it showed that there was little between us on urban deprivation—I said:
The greater co-operation between local authorities and football clubs is a high priority. In some areas this type of co-operation has been non-existent, and both the club and the local community have suffered. We recognise that league football in many places is not a profitable business, but it is an important part of the social fabric of our towns. Frequently football clubs form the natural focus of interest 524 for thousands of sports spectators, and they are often situated in central positions near depressed run-down housing areas in desperate need of social and recreational facilities. We would like to see the clubs and councils cooperating on the redevelopment of stadia to provide a wider range of sporting facilities, a social centre and to ensure better use of the existing space.Football is our national game, and the Sports Council spends a fair proportion on it, as can be deduced from the annual report's list of sports supported. But football seems to have other sources of finance, such as the Minister's special grants shown in the Estimates. There is also the Football Ground Improvement Trust to help improve stadiums. We must keep a close eye on moves towards the football board, as recommended by the Royal Commission on Gambling. A national lottery is hypothetical at this stage, but I wish the Government would raise the limit on local lotteries, which seem to be helpful to sport generally.I am sure that the Minister will keep a watchful eye on the legal case on charitable trusts that is now proceeding. Legislation may have to be introduced.
There is a Sports Council grant of £15.2 million, but the arts receive about £49 million. In some of the Sunday newspapers there was an indication that there would be an additional £6 million this year for museums. All these figures must be kept in perspective.
I believe that next year the Sports Council will make a bid for substantially increased resources. This highlights how the value of sport and recreation has increased in the population's minds. Government thinking must evolve and react to these aspirations and, with local authorities, go as far to meet them as national resources allow. A switch of priorities within national expenditure limits would seem to be the only way forward at present.
I asked the Minister about the spending of the additional resources during the present financial year. Is there any chance of a roll-over if the money is unspent, which must be a possibility? If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would allow it, we should move towards loans at low interest rates, or interest-free loans, rather than grants, except for pump-priming. Then there would be more money circulating within 525 sport, and loans could be repaid from income over a period of years. Does the Minister have a view on that?
Within the terms of the Royal charter, the Sports Council should have as much autonomy as possible, while always consulting the Government, the Central Council for Physical Recreation and governing bodies. I would not expect the Minister to interfere on day-to-day issues, but there seems to be a major decision ahead for the Sports Council—whether to leave the Knightbridge headquarters. That would affect the CCPR and the many sports with their headquarters there. There is talk of a "house of sport ", or less expensive accommodation. Has the Minister given any advice? If so, what is it? Is the Sports Council expected to fund whatever decision is taken within the normal Estimates?
In circular 47/76, when the Minister set up the regional councils of sport and recreation, he indicated that, when the finances of the Countryside Commission permitted, the staff would be paid by the Commission. Is there any change in the position? Are resources improving for the Commission to pay the staff of the regional councils?
Is the Sports Council or the Minister having any success in accelerating the dual use of sports facilities in our schools? We could do much better. Although everyone is aiming at this objective, I do not think that we are moving in the right direction as quickly as we should. Some authorities have shown what can be done. Certainly the Services have done it. All agree that when it has been achieved it has been a great success. Is the Minister making progress with the Secretary of State for Education and Science, or the local authorities, towards this end?
The 1980 Olympics approach. Obviously preparations are dealt with in this year's budget. An important consideration in our preparations ought to be the centres of excellence. The British Olympic Association, under Sir Denis Follows, and the Sports Aid Foundation, under Mr. Paul Zetter, have been doing very well. But I doubt whether the centres of excellence have been as effective in helping gifted athletes as we had hoped. I know that it is comparatively early days yet. There are exceptions. I 526 have seen a good weight-lifting centre in Birmingham, and we have all been greatly encouraged by Jim Fox and his pentathletes at Arborfield. Are the other centres developing as quickly as the Minister would have wished?
Can the Minister say anything about the development of international coaching? One of our weaknesses is the lack of international coaches of top calibre to train our sportsmen and women. This is something which will come with experience, but we all want it to come quicker. These are points on which the Minister may have a view. I know that he is anxious, as we all are, that we should do as well as possible in the Olympics. Within this context, the governing bodies and the willing volunteers have an extremely important part to play.
I have asked the Minister a number of questions which I hope he can answer. I appreciate the time and effort he puts into sport and the understanding we have between us. This is a valuable occasion on which he can spell out what is happening to the additional moneys in the Estimate and tell us whether he feels that they are adequate to deal with the demand for better facilities from the general public and the wishes of the nation to do better in international competition.
§ 5.42 a.m.
§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Mr. Denis Howell)By leave of the House, may I say that, even at this late hour, and despite the fact that the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) has a heavy cold, I am delighted that he has been able to initiate this brief debate, since we both share the view that we do not have sufficient time to debate these important matters on the Floor of the House.
I start my reply to the hon. Member's speech by joining with him in appreciation of all those serving sport, or who have served it and have recently retired. Certainly Dickie Jeeps and Emlyn Jones, at the Sports Council, have got off to an extremely good start. It is a fresh, new combination which sport will value. That is in no way to detract from the considerable contribution over a number of years of Sir Robin Brook and Sir Walter Winterbottom. Sir Walter has now joined my staff on a part-time basis. 527 in a consultancy capacity. His first job will be to make sure that the international political side of our work is maintained. There is a degree of continuity there, following the successful meeting of the sports Ministers of the Council of Europe here in April.
That work continues, and there is other work which I am certain needs to be done on how the development of the sale of sports goods and British technical knowhow abroad can be co-ordinated and improved for the benefit of our industry, our sport and our national economy. The countries whose markets we are trying to penetrate often expect some form of assistance in return by way of coaching, the development of their own talent and so on. I believe that Sir Walter is uniquely placed to advise us on those matters.
I, too, join in the welcome to Peter Heatley and Jack Allan, and I express my gratitude certainly to Mary Glen Haig who succeeded me as chairman of the Central Council for Physical Recreation. I know more than most what difficulties lie in the way of chairing a body which comprises some 200 governing bodies of sport. As the hon. Gentleman will know from his own sporting experience in rugby, it is no easy matter.
I turn now to the question of additional grants. We were able to find an additional £3 million this year. Although it is true that some of that could not be announced until June, in private discussions with the chairman, secretary and director of the Sports Council I had intimated that it might be possible well before the end of the last financial year, and I asked them to be ready to come forward with schemes if I found it possible within my Department's Estimates to provide money for the very things which the hon. Gentleman acknowledges as valuable. I was delighted to be asked about them. I think particularly of the need to get football clubs closely integrated with the affairs of their own local community and their supporters, which is an aspect of these matters which has caused us so much trouble. So when the announcement came they were ready to move on, and I had a letter this week from the director of the Sports Council assuring me that all the additional funds will be spent by 31st March. That is our 528 expectation at the moment, and we all hope that that will prove to be the case.
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman wants me to go into great detail on how that money is being spent, but I can say that two areas are of tremendous importance. I acknowledge the importance of rural deprivation, and one would hope to do something about that a little later, but the social problems in our cities are so pressing that it was right, in my judgment and in the Sports Council's judgment, to give this area first priority.
This year £650,000 out of the £3 million will go to the areas of special need. This is on schemes for grants to local authorities and voluntary organisations —community-based schemes, kickabout areas, projects involving youth clubs, assistance to ethnic minorities, that sort of thing.
Incidentally, the football and community scheme is going extremely well. There are 35 schemes altogether under way out of the extra money—30 with football clubs and five with rugby league. The football clubs involve 11 clubs in the first division, six in the second, eight in the third and five in the fourth. One can see how that is spread over the divisions.
I am particularly pleased that out of this extra money the Sports Council has started a small equipment fund. Under this scheme, each region of the country—I think that it is nine regions in England —has been allocated £25,000. They will buy all sorts of equipment, such as footballs, cricket balls, cricket bats, boxing gloves, rackets of one sort or another, table tennis tables and so on. The regional sports councils will own this equipment, keeping an inventory of it, but will lease it out more or less on a permanent basis to clubs especially in deprived areas—to youngsters who would not otherwise be able to field a cricket team, for example, because of the high cost of equipment.
I have high hopes that that small amount of money in each region will generate a lot of sporting activity where we want it, among youngsters in the back streets and in the local communities. I am delighted to see the hon. Gentleman nod in approval of this scheme, which is of great importance.
We have not lost sight of the important charity law case. We are keeping the 529 matter under close observation. Interstfree loans are also something of great interest to us. The subject is currently under discussion in my Department.
The Sports Council has set up a working party to consider the accommodation situation, and it will be discussed at the Council's next meeting. We keep in touch with events, but, of course, we have to be careful about the amount of public expenditure that we can promise. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman has to be even more careful than I, since his colleagues are committed to rather rigorous control on public expenditure, but no doubt he had that in mind when he requested more assistance.
We have made a lot of progress on the question of dual use in the last 10 years, but I share the hon. Gentlemen's concern that it could be even greater. I have proposed a meeting with my colleagues of the Department of Education and Science to consider how, in the next 12 months, we can give additional emphasis to this move, since it is clear to all of us that, if we can get existing buildings fully utilised, that is a much more economic method of using our funds.
I am particularly concerned about the community use of primary schools. Every neighbourhood has a primary school. Each primary school has a playground which could perhaps be floodlit, and has a hall of some sort. I believe that we could perhaps build an additional social area or room on to a primary school, with possibly some showers and so on, and at a modest sum open up considerable capital projects in quite a dramatic way.
Some authorities have done that. For example, Walsall has pioneered such developments, and its chief education officer also has responsibility for recreation and sport. Walsall has made a first-class contribution which I appreciate. We shall continue to foster the educational side of our affairs.
The hon. Gentleman also talked about the local authorities and arts expenditure. There is constant confusion in this area. First, we are not comparing like with like. The Sports Council spends almost the whole of its money on amateur sport, whereas the Arts Council spends almost the whole of its money on professional theatre and music. For example, the Sports Council is not called upon to pay 530 towards the salaries of professional footballers, thank goodness, whereas the Arts Council is called upon to pay the salaries of musicians and actors in our orchestras and in the National Theatre and so on.
Furthermore, the Government's contribution to local authority sport is enormous, much greater than in the arts. It is in that area that most of our citizens enjoy their sport and their recreation. This year alone we estimate that the current expenditure of local authorities on the seven headings which make up sport and recreation will be over £457 million, whereas the capital expenditure will be about £83 million. Those are considerable figures on sport and recreation. The Government provide just over 60 per cent. of that money.
In a previous debate initiated by the hon. Gentleman, I announced the setting up of the Football Ground Improvement Trust. It started by imposing a levy of 10 per cent. on all the spot-the-ball competitions which the Football Pools Promoters Association runs. The contribution was steadily increased and it is now running at 20 per cent. of all the entry money. I think I am right in saying that the amount currently coming into the Football Ground Improvement Trust is running at about £3 million, which is phenomenal, and I must express my appreciation, which is very sincere indeed, to the Football Pools Promoters Association, particularly to Littlewoods, Vernons and Zetters, which are the main participants, and their directors, and to Mr. Alan Hardaker, who was one of the authors of the scheme. The importance of the money going to football grounds to enable them to comply with the rigid sports safety legislation cannot be overestimated. It is of tremendous importance, and I know that the hon. Gentleman will want to join me in expressing appreciation of what is a most generous provision.
Likewise, in my White Paper of a year or two ago I announced the establishment of the Sports Aid Foundation and the centres of excellence. More than 60 such centres were established during the first year, which again was tremendous progress. There has been a great take-up. I am extremely indebted to the regional sports councils for all the work that they have done, and to the colleges, universities and local authorities which have 531 joined in these schemes. They will make a contribution towards the 1980 Olympics training programme—like the hon. Gentleman, I think that it would be foolish to overstate that—but they were really intended to be of great help for the 1984 Olympics. They were set up with a longer-term view in mind, but of course they will make some contribution to the 1980 Olympics.
The second leg of that proposal was the establishment of the Sports Aid Foundation, which has been another astonishing success story. I have seen the hon. Gentleman at some of its functions, so I think that all of us here can congratulate the foundation. Mr. Paul Zetter, its chairman, has worked tirelessly and almost full-time to help raise money as well as to ensure that the money goes to those who ought to receive financial support for their preparation and training programmes. Our thanks are due to Mr. Zetter, his colleagues and their staff.
I was asked about the Countryside Commission's staff. Just as I was able to offer additional funds to the Sports Council during the year, so I was able to offer additional funds to the Countryside Commission and to the Nature Conservancy Council, both of which are very important in recreational terms. Both organisations assure me that the money will be spent and that they have schemes which have long been awaiting attention. Exciting proposals are coming from both organisations about how the town and countryside can be brought together, particularly with areas of deprivation in mind, and we can make a contribution here by, for example, having town farms, opening up green fields and developing the countryside and nature conservancy. Some exciting thinking is going on in the whole of that area.
I have not yet been able to provide even more additional funds for extra staff for the Countryside Commission and the regional sports councils, but I am very anxious to do so if only because when I first established the new regional councils for sport and recreation the Commission was a bit sceptical about whether they would be worth while. I think that the Commission is now totally converted to the view that this fundamental change of getting the Countryside Commission into the regions with an active presence 532 has done nothing but good and enhanced the contribution which the Commission is making.
The chairmen of all the regions have written to me asking for help and I shall do my best to provide it as soon as I can. I want to assist them. I can give the hon. Member for Dumfries a good interim report. I thank him for his kind personal references, which I appreciate and reciprocate. We both have the best interests of sport at heart and will do our best, with, I hope, the support of all our colleagues in the House, to further the objectives of our sports and recreational policy.