Trade Unions (Hansard, 11 December 1978)

§ 21. Mr. Skinner
asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects next to meet Civil Service Union leaders; and if he will make a statement.

§ 24. Mr. Canavan
asked the Minister of State for the Civil Service when he expects next to meet representatives of the Civil Service trade unions.

§ Mr. Charles R. Morris
I am in frequent contact with representatives of the Civil Service trade unions.

§ Mr. Skinner
When the Minister meets Civil Service trade union leaders, will he convey to them that the 5 per cent. policy will not be carried out by the Government? It seems clear that that policy has gone out the window, considering all the settlements now being made. Will he consider especially those at the lower end of the Civil Service pay scale, such as those who work behind counters in social security offices? If the Minister and his colleagues think of introducing sanctions against civil servants, they will shut down the Government.

§ Mr. Morris
The principle on which Civil Service pay is based is that of fair comparison. We are about to receive reports from the Pay Research Unit, and then the negotiations will start. I cannot anticipate the outcome.

§ Mr. Canavan
Does the Minister agree that wages for public sector workers have declined relative to those of comparable workers in the private sector? This is due to excessive wage restraint, and public sector workers need at least 15 per cent. to bring them up to the standards of comparable workers in the private sector. Will the Government implement fully in April 1979 the salary increases justified by the Pay Research Unit's evidence, especially in respect of the lower paid ranks of the Civil Service?

§ Mr. Morris
I have noted those points. However, I cannot give any such undertaking at this stage in the negotiations. My hon. Friend may well be right about comparative jobs in the private sector. The report may show that those outside 21 are paid more. But we cannot comment until we see the report.

§ Mr. Peter Bottomley
Recognising that these people's wages are being negotiated without the opportunity for a wages drift, and accepting that the PRU report is coming, will the Minister tell us whether the negotiations which begin after the report is received will be about comparability or about a 5 per cent. pay policy?

§ Mr. Morris
The Government's guidelines, obviously, will be a major factor in the negotiations on which we shall embark in 1979. All the points that the hon. Gentleman has made will be repeated by the distinguished and skilful group of general secretaries of the Civil Service trade unions when the negotiations begin.

§ Mr. Ioan Evans
As well as talking about salaries and conditions, will my right hon. Friend discuss with Civil Service union leaders whether the youth opportunities programme and the work experience programme are being applied in Government Departments to the extent that is desirable?

§ Mr. Morris
We have made very little progress in introducing work experience schemes into the Civil Service. I cannot and will not justify this poor progress. The difficulties that we have encountered come from the opposition of one Civil Service union. The Secretary of State for Employment and I have met the president and general secretary of that union and I hope that in the weeks ahead we shall arrive at an accommodation which will enable youngsters to get work experience in the Civil Service.

§ Mr. Biffen
The Minister's answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Bottomley) was pure equivocation. We want to know which is the greater factor weighing with the Government on Civil Service pay—fair comparison or the 5 per cent. policy. Will the Minister give a straight answer?

§ Mr. Morris
I shall try to do so. The Government have reactivated the Pay Research Unit. Its work will provide evidence of the movements of comparable jobs in the private sector. The report will be the basis of negotiation. In the very nature of things the Government's guidelines will be a factor in the negotiations.

§ Mr. Litterick
Is the Minister aware that Civil Service trade union officers in Birmingham have reported that a significant and growing number of executive officers in the Civil Service are having to claim family income supplement and other means-tested benefits? Will he convey to the Treasury the thought that, notwithstanding the 5 per cent. policy limitation on salary increases, there will be a saving on means-tested benefits with any wage increase given to these civil servants?

§ Mr. Morris
That is a view which the secretary general of the national staff side will consider closely on entering the negotiations.