HC Deb 07 December 1978 vol 959 cc1600-2
5. Mr. Michael Latham

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he intends to take a further political initiative regarding the powers of local government in the Province.

Mr. Mason

I have no plans substantially to increase the powers of the existing district councils; nor do I think that it would be right to establish in Northern Ireland a system of local government similar to that in England and Wales or Scotland. But I want to see the powers that were once exercised by county and county borough councils once more in the hands of elected representatives in a system of devolved government acceptable to both parts of the community. That is what my talks with the political parties will be about.

Mr. Latham

Is not the present situation very unsatisfactory except as a temporary measure, and should not the right hon. Gentleman, now that he is taking correct action over parliamentary representation, look again at this matter since there really ought not to be differences within the United Kingdom in this matter?

Mr. Mason

I hope that the major political parties in Northern Ireland will hear what the hon. Gentleman has said. My job is to try to get the four major political parties in particular to start thinking seriously about methods of devolution in Northern Ireland. In the past few weeks, I have met representatives of six political parties, including the four major political parties, and they are now prepared to think seriously about methods of devolved government. I hope that we can make some progress.

Mr. Madden

Does my right hon. Friend believe that extensions of local government powers are compatible with the continuation of direct rule, which, if public opinion polls are to be believed, enjoys the popular support of both the majority and minority populations?

Mr. Mason

The latest survey indicates that the majority of the majority and minority population are content with direct rule, although, of course, most of them would like to see Ulstermen governing Ulster. As a matter of fact that would be the best solution. I am working towards it. But I hope that the political parties will co-operate.

Mr. Neave

Is not the real point that regional services should be restored to Northern Ireland people as soon as possible, and, since little progress is being made at present in the Secretary of State's talks, will he now consider ways of improving direct rule in the short term other than those which he has devised so far? Has the right hon. Gentleman come to a decision on the suggestion which I made in the House on 9th November, that he should invite Sir Patrick Macrory to devise a scheme for a regional council?

Mr. Mason

I do not want to disappoint the hon. Gentleman again with regard to his suggestion on the Macrory intervention, but I think that it is premature. I say that on the basis that, as I said a moment ago, I have now met six of the political parties in Northern Ireland, including the four major political parties—the Official Unionist Party, the Democratic Unionist Party, the Alliance Party and the Social Democratic and Labour Party. All four of them have now indicated that they are prepared to return and talk about forms and methods of devolution in the Province. I should like to go through that round of talks before I take on board the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.

Mr. Neave

May I ask the Secretary of State a further question? If that second round of talks is not successful, will he then consider inviting Sir Patrick to devise a scheme?

Mr. Mason

I would not give an assurance at this stage, but I would not close my mind to it.

Mr. Fitt

Is it true that my right hon. Friend has recently had discussions with Official Unionist Party Members in the House on the question of a return of local government power to local authorities in Northern Ireland? Is he aware of the speech made by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) at Warren-point last weekend in which he indicated to his audience, in his usual nudge-nudge, wink-wink fashion, that he had had discussions and that it would be a very short time before local authority powers were returned to local authorities in Northern Ireland? Will my right hon. Friend say whether that is true?

Mr. Mason

I am sorry, but I am not responsible for press speculation, and neither am I responsible—God forbid—for the utterances of the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell)—

Mr. Powell

The right hon. Gentleman would be very lucky if he were.

Mr. Mason

—on every subject on which he pontificates. But I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman himself will inform my hon. Friend whether he has discussed with me a stepping stone towards a return of local government power.

Mr. Powell

Would the Secretary of State be willing to tell the House of all the discussions which take place between him and his hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), or does he think that discussions which take place between hon. Members outside the Chamber are not a subject for discussion on the Floor?

Mr. Mason

I entirely agree with the latter point, and it would be an incredibly lengthy job for me to disclose to the House all the discussions that I have with my hon. Friend.