Supplementary Benefit (Hansard, 5 December 1978)

§ 5. Mr. Pardoe
asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what proportion of people in Cornwall and the United Kingdom, respectively, are currently in receipt of supplementary benefit.

§ The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. David Ennals)
In November 1977, about 8.9 per cent. of the United Kingdom population were partly or wholly dependent on supplementary benefit. Comparable information for Cornwall is not available.

§ Mr. Pardoe
Does the Secretary of State recognise that this is a scandalous situation? In 1963 the Labour Party published a document entitled"The Twelve Wasted Years"which condemned the proportion of the population forced by the then Conservative Government to live on means-tested benefits. Since then the proportion of the population living on these means-tested benefits has increased and increased again and again—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) is advancing an argument and not asking a question. The hon. Gentleman must ask a question.

§ Mr. Pardoe
I am perfectly prepared to accept that, Mr. Speaker. However, I did phrase it as a question. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we now have the means-tested society in place of the Welfare State? What will the Government do to reduce the proportion of the population forced to live on these means-tested benefits?

§ Mr. Ennals
It is not a scandal. There has been a great increase in the number of retirement pensioners. There has also been a faster increase in the number of these means-tested benefits has increased families. However, the responsibility of the State is to ensure that people are relieved and that they have a decent standard of living. There is no need to be ashamed. The people who should be ashamed are those who are sometimes disparaging of those who claim supplementary benefit.

§ Mrs. Castle
How many people are receiving supplementary benefit because they are in arrears with their national insurance contributions and those contributions have been waived?

§ Mr. Ennals
I take it that my right hon. Friend has in mind allegations made yesterday in a court and while the case—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. If that is what the right hon. Member for Blackburn 1204 (Mrs. Castle) is talking about, we cannot have it. We must not in any way refer to the case that is now under way.

§ Mr. Sproat
In the light of recent cases in Cornwall and elsewhere of unemployed persons receiving £130 a week tax free from social security, will the right hon. Gentleman now consider placing an upper limit on the amount that any one person or family may receive in any one week from social security? Is it not completely unjust that an unemployed person can, by not working, get the equivalent of almost double the average national wage of someone who is working, and for that matter six times the single old age pension?

§ Mr. Ennals
The hon. Gentleman will believe anything that he reads and anything that he hears. He goes scraping in the gutter in the House as elsewhere to bring allegations against those who claim supplementary benefit. I shall have no more of it.

§ Mr. Skinner
On a point of order. Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
I shall be much obliged if the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) will wait until after Questions.

§ Mr. Skinner
On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. You will recall that during the course of Questions to the Secretary of State for Social Services my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) asked about insurance cards, and so on, that have been discussed down at Minehead. I do not want to get involved in that because I am a disinterested bystander, but you, Mr. Speaker, were quickly to your feet to point out to the Minister that he could not refer to that matter.
I rise purely for this reason: arising out of another incident some time ago in the same case, Lord Goodman, who sits in the other place, made a statement of retraction along certain lines in order to make his position clear. The question that I want cleared up—I seek no more than that—is why Lord Goodman could make a statement along those lines when my right hon. Friend the Minister cannot. Is it that this House is covered by privilege, as is the court? What is the reason? I cannot understand why one set 1205 of circumstances applies to one person but not to the other.

§ Mr. Speaker
I think that the hon. Gentleman will discover that the noble Lord to whom he referred did not make that statement in another place; he made it outside. I have no control over what people say outside this House, and I do not want it, but within this House I am quite sure that it is the overwhelming wish of everyone, including the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), that nothing shall be said about a case which is already under adjudication and which I am sure no one in this House would seek to prejudice in any way.