British Railways (Hansard, 2 August 1978)

§ 4. Mr. Neubert
asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects next to meet the chairman of British Railways.

§ 28. Mr. Forman
asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects next to meet the chairman of British Railways.

§ Mr. William Rodgers
On Friday.

§ Mr. Neubert
As public support for rail passengers has increased from £91 million to £363 million in four years, will the right hon. Gentleman point out to the chairman of British Railways that the public, in return, are entitled to much faster progress in improving efficiency and reducing manning levels? If he could persuade Mr. Sidney Weighell of the NUR to spend more time grappling with these problems and less on making political threats, for which he has no authority, he would be doing a public service.

§ Mr. Rodgers
I do not think that I shall speak to the chairman in those terms. The chairman is very much committed to having an efficient railway which meets the needs of customers, and he has had considerable success. Those who travel on the high-speed trains, for example, find a fast and convenient service. The chairman is doing a first-class job of work. But of course there could be improvements. He wants to see them, I want to see them, and the whole House wishes to see them.

§ Mr. Forman
When the Secretary of State next meets Sir Peter Parker, will he congratulate him on the facelift operation being carried out at Victoria Station and ask him when it is due to be completed? Will he also press Sir Peter to reach the target of a manpower reduction of 40,000 by 1981 which he set out in an earlier British Rail document?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his first remarks. From time to time we in this House ought to pay tribute where tribute is due, even when we wish to scrutinise the performance of our nationalised industries, as we are entitled to do.
There are very curious anomalies in the manpower of British Rail. There have been very considerable reductions, and of course we want increased productivity, but there are many vacancies as well. It is a microcosm of our national problem.

§ Mr. Robin F. Cook
When my right hon. Friend meets the chairman of British Railways, will he congratulate him on the fact that 12,000 of the target figure of 40,000 has already been achieved? That has been possible because of investments coming into the rail system—for instance, in new signalling, which accounts for 5,000 of those lost posts. Will my right hon. Friend therefore assure the chairman of British Rail that he will get the investment that he must have if he is to get greater productivity on British railways?

§ Mr. Rodgers
The simple equation between productivity and investment is sometimes overplayed. My hon. Friend will understand that. Nor do I wish to discuss specific manpower targets with the chairman of British Railways. He is running a business; he understands the need to satisfy Parliament and to work within the ceiling of investment and subsidy available, and I think he is doing very well.

§ Mr. Norman Fowler
There is a great deal of common ground in this House on railway policy. Is it also common ground, first, that, as the Price Commission suggested, commuters have been discriminated against in fares policy over recent years and that future discrimination cannot be justified; and, secondly, that it is a matter of urgency that an accepted 732 system of costing should be devised so that all passengers know the costs of the services for which they are paying?

§ Mr. Rodgers
We have covered this ground many times, and no doubt we shall do so again. British Rail's problem is that it must raise money either by way of the grant which we pay the organisation or by increases in fares. British Rail's problem is to find a means of covering the costs involved in running the service. In that respect it has been attempting to take that step where the service is used. British Rail is fully aware of the discrimination argument. Equally, it is fully concerned to give the maximum disclosure of the figures which underlie its assumptions. I support British Rail in that.

§ Mr. Ioan Evans
We on this side of the House join in congratulating Sir Peter Parker on the breath of fresh air which he has brought into British Railways and the enterprising way in which he has attracted commuters and other people who travel on the railways. I support him in what he is doing to attract more people to travel by rail, but will he do all he can, in conjunction with the Department, to ensure that the heavy traffic now carried on the road by juggernauts is taken by the railways?

§ Mr. Rodgers
My hon. Friend's choice of words was particularly felicitous when he said that the present chairman has brought a breath of fresh air into British Rail. That view is very widely held. He and I are anxious to see more freight carried by rail. My own belief is that a good deal more freight can be attracted back. Certainly I wish to see this.