HC Deb 19 April 1978 vol 948 cc447-54
The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a statement about the representation of Northern Ireland in this House.

A conference was set up last July under your chairmanship, Mr. Speaker, to consider, and make recommendations on, the number of parliamentary constituencies that there should be in Northern Ireland. The conference reported in February of this year and its report was published as Command Paper 7110. I express the gratitude of the Government to you, Mr. Speaker, for presiding over that conference, and to those right hon. and hon. Members who served on it.

The conference recommended that the number of parliamentary constituencies in Northern Ireland should be 17, but that, in order to be able to overcome practical difficulties, the Boundary Commission should be given power to vary that number, subject to a minimum of 16 and a maximum of 18.

The Government accept these recommendations and, as parliamentary circumstances permit, will introduce a Bill to make the necessary amendments to the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) Act 1949. I should add that the time required to carry out the statutory procedures of the Parliamentary Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland to fix the new constituency boundaries is such that the next General Election will take place on the existing basis.

Mrs. Thatcher

We welcome the decision of Mr. Speaker's Conference to increase the number of seats for Northern Ireland to 17. May I put two questions to the Prime Minister on his statement? First, he said that he will introduce legislation "as parliamentary circumstances permit". As this Bill will be a very short one—I believe two clauses—as it was an overwhelming decision of Mr. Speaker's Conference, and as we Conservatives will do our best to ensure that the Bill has a speedy passage, may we assume that the phrase "as parliamentary circumstances permit" includes the probability that the Bill will be introduced and passed through all its stages before the House rises for the Summer Recess?

Secondly, may I ask a question about the Parliamentary Boundary Commission? The Prime Minister will recollect that in the published evidence given before Mr. Speaker's Conference the representatives of the Parliamentary Boundary Commission said that it would take four years, or was likely to take up to four years, from the passage of the legislation to complete their work on the change of numbers of boundaries. Is it possible to give the Parliamentary Boundary Commission any authority immediately to start that work or is it necessary to introduce the legislation forthwith in order to give it that authority?

The Prime Minister

I specifically used the phrase "as parliamentary circumstances permit" because there is a lot of work ahead of Parliament. Although we are ready to get this Bill on the statute book—and we certainly intend to do so—there is another full Session of this Parliament ahead of us. That is the reason why I added at the end—had there been any difficulty about it I would have thought differently—that the new seats cannot operate for the next General Election. I think that the House can be satisfied that the Government will introduce the legislation. But in view of the pressure on our time this year, it does not mean that we shall necessarily do it this Session. If it is not this Session it will be next Session. Then the Boundary Commission can get to work.

As to the Boundary Commissioners' work, they can start work at any time that they think appropriate, because they have to produce a report between 1979 and 1984. But I understand the practice is that they would not publish any of their preliminary work until the Bill had received its Royal Assent. I also read the evidence that was given to Mr. Speaker's Conference, and although I gather that the Boundary Commission took four years last time, I deduced from the evidence of the Boundary Commission deputy chairman that it would not necessarily take anything like that time on the next occasion.

Mr. Molyneaux

Is the Prime Minister aware that there will be satisfaction in Northern Ireland at the Government's decision to remedy an injustice which has existed since 1920? Is he aware that this satisfaction is shared by all sensible people in Northern Ireland who recognise that such a step can only be beneficial to every citizen of Northern Ireland?

In view of the pledge of support from the Leader of the Opposition, will the Prime Minister do everything in his power to avoid delay? Finally, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that precious time can be saved if the Northern Ireland Boundary Commission is encouraged to resume its activities, as there is a precedent for this, as he knows, in the activities of the Great Britain Boundary Commissions in making preparations for direct elections to the European Assembly?

The Prime Minister

I can say to the hon. Member that certainly we shall avoid delay on this matter. There is no desire for delay. We have an overwhelming report from the Speaker's Conference and, therefore, we shall put through the legislation.

As regards the Boundary Commission, as the hon. Member knows, we have no control over the manner in which it does its work. However, I deduce from the evidence which was given that the Commission will want to proceed with its preliminary work, and no doubt the Commissioners will read the observations of the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux), the Leader of the Opposition and myself.

Mr. David Steel

My right hon. and hon. Friends and I wish to support the findings of your conference, Mr. Speaker and the passage of the necessary legislation. However, in view of the fact that it was beyond the remit of your conference to consider the electoral system, and considering that the previous Government thought it right to introduce proportional representation again for the Consultative Assembly, as did the present Government for the European elections in the Province, would it not be consistent and helpful both to community relations and to the speed of the work of the Boundary Commission if we had a system of proportional representation in the proposed legislation?

The Prime Minister

I have a feeling that if that were introduced into the Bill it would no longer be as non-controversial as the Leader of the Opposition said it would be. So I think that we had perhaps better take this one step at a time I have a feeling also that I would not even take all of my hon. Friends with me if I recommended proportional representation.

Mr. McNamara

Is my right hon. Friend aware that he will not take all of his right hon. and hon. Friends with him if he introduces the Bill anyway? Can he explain why there has been a complete inversion of the bipartisan policy, from the first White Paper of the right hon. Member for Penrith and the Border (Mr. Whitelaw) to statements in the House by the present Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, that the first progress to be made in Northern Ireland is to have devolved government as the best means of protecting democracy there? Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that, before we have any legislation on a profoundly important constitutional matter upsetting the whole of the 1920 settlement, the Government will at least have the decency to publish a proper White Paper explaining the Government's volte face on this aspect of policy?

The Prime Minister

The Government have accepted an overwhelming recommendation from the Speaker's Conference, and that is the usual procedure. It is hardly a volte face. I do not agree with my hon. Friend. However, certainly I go along with him to this extent—and it is a very important one—that the addition of seats to this House in order to correct an under-representation should in no way and in no circumstances be taken as a substitute for devolved government in Northern Ireland as soon as it is possible to introduce it.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

Does the Prime Minister agree that it is very unfair, at a time when Scotland and Wales, which have proportionately higher representation than anywhere else in the United Kingdom, are being given so much parliamentary time to the introduction of devolved Administrations, Northern Ireland should be denied its fair representation, especially as there are no plans at present for it to have any form of regional administration?

The Prime Minister

That is not a matter which lies totally within the control of the United Kingdom Government. Our policy on this matter is quite clear, and I have just restated it. The decisions on these matters are not wholly for us. They also concern the people of Northern Ireland.

Mr. Fitt

Will my right hon. Friend take it from me that his statement will not be welcomed by the whole community in Northern Ireland and that the satisfaction referred to by the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) will be limited to the majority Unionist-cum-Loyalist community in Northern Ireland? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the 12 seats which Northern Ireland has held in this House hitherto were part and parcel of the settlement of 1920 which created the State of Northern Ireland and that, if those 12 seats are tampered with, the door will be open to question the very existence of the Northern Ireland State? Will my right hon. Friend take it from me, further, that this statement that the Government will support the recommendation for an increase in the number of seats will make it far more difficult to try to bring about any power-sharing Administration in Northern Ireland and that the Unionist- Loyalist community will stand with their backs to the wall and say that now that they have succeeded in getting integration, be it creeping or not, they will move no further in trying to accommodate the Government's view of power-sharing government? Will my right hon. Friend take it from me, finally, that I hope to have considerable support from the Government Benches to fight as vehemently as we can to prevent this legislation from reaching the statute book?

The Prime Minister

I have no doubt that my hon. Friend will rally support wherever he can, and he has a great deal of sympathy and understanding in this House. But it would be quite improper for the Government to overturn a recommendation carried in such a manner by a Speaker's Conference, made up of representatives of all the parties in this House, and I think that we would get ourselves into a lot of trouble from other quarters if we were to do that. It is proper for the Government to accept this recommendation, and I hope that the House will carry it in due course.

Mr. Gow

Is it not clear from the Prime Minister's statement that the Government are following delaying tactics in this matter? Have not more than nine weeks elapsed since Mr. Speaker reported to the Prime Minister, and has not the Prime Minister told the House in plain terms this afternoon that the Government have no intention whatever of introducing a Bill in this Session of Parliament?

The Prime Minister

I have nothing to add to what I have said already. The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) can put his own construction on it. I think the House is quite clear about what I said and the way that I meant it.

Mr. Faulds

Will my right hon. Friend undertake not to be constrained in these or any other matters by the limitations of comprehension and political generosity of the Leader of the Opposition?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir.

Mr. Craig

Does the Prime Minister recollect the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) protesting about the infringement of the 1920 settlement when the Stormont Parliament was abolished?

The Prime Minister

I am long acquainted with the affairs of Ireland, and I know that historians are in superabundance there. Sometimes I wish that we could remember a little less of our history in Northern Ireland and deal with the situation as it exists today. The situation as it exists has been pronounced upon by your Conference, Mr. Speaker, and I believe that that is the right way to proceed.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

There are two hon. Members on each side of the House seeking to catch my eye. I shall call each of them in turn.

Mr. Litterick

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that these proposals are unlikely to make a constructive contribution to ending the civil disturbances which have been going on in Ulster now for nine years? Will my right hon. Friend take on board the fact that this decision will be seen by many people in Ulster and many more in the Republic of Ireland as a pre-emption of a number of political options which could bring these civil disturbances to an end?

The Prime Minister

I do not accept that there are civil disturbances going on in Northern Ireland at present. There is a group of men who say that they have political ends and who are acting as murderers. But that is not a question of civil disturbance, and all the weight and authority of this House of Commons should be brought to bear against them.

Mr. Biffen

Although I appreciate that the current legislative commitments of the Government may make it impracticable to think in terms of this legislation being effected during the current Session of Parliament, will the Prime Minister give serious and sympathetic consideration at least to the publication of the Bill during the current Session of Parliament?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir. I shall give consideration to that. I do not want us to have a false division here. There will be those who are opposed to anything being done. That is clear already. But my consideration of this matter is limited by the fact that it is not possible to increase these seats, if the House so wills, by the next General Election. Therefore, I think that we can take this in due order. That is what the Government will do, and I shall consider what the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) said.

Mr. Dalyell

In considering these difficult matters, has the Prime Minister reflected how long a situation can endure in which 71 MPs from Scotland can vote and speak on the most delicate matters of politics in relation to Derry but not to Dundee and to Belfast but not to Bath-gate? How long can that situation continue?

The Prime Minister

Almost indefinitely.

Mr. Alexander Fletcher

Has the Prime Minister considered the fact that if the Scotland Bill is enacted, this House may be under pressure to decrease the number of Scottish Westminster MPs? At the same time the House may be increasing the number of MPs from Northern Ireland. Is this not a severe inconsistency, which is making a mockery of the Government's devolution policy?

The Prime Minister

I am not discussing that policy. The House will have plenty of time to do that. I would not want to suggest that anything was a mockery over which Mr. Speaker presided.