HC Deb 18 April 1978 vol 948 cc251-4
03. Mr. Bryan Davies

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his engagements for Tuesday 18th April.

The Prime Minister

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I have just given to the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers).

Mr. Davies

During a busy day, will my right hon. Friend have time to consider the rather sinister news that the Opposition appear to believe that a major priority, if they should ever form an Administration, should be to devote the best brains in Whitehall to beefing up the Contingency Planning Unit in order to defeat the trade unions in any confrontation which might arise? Is it not highly significant that the only planning that the Opposition believe in is planning of this destructive kind?

The Prime Minister

I am not responsible for these Press reports, and I do not know whether the Opposition's attitude in these matters is sinister or naive. I do know that they do not understand the trade union movement. However, this is an interesting development. I suggest in all seriousness to the Opposition that they might consider publishing this report in order to avoid any sinister implications being put upon it.

Mr. Tebbit

Will the Prime Minister spare us a little of his expertise on these matters since it was he who became the first Prime Minister for many years to use troops for strike breaking, as he did during the fire brigade strike? Is he aware that we regard him as a bit of an expert on using troops for strike breaking and even in getting the approval of his hon. Friends to do so?

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

Sunk without trace.

The Prime Minister

I should like to deny the allegation that there were cries of "Author" when the hon. Gentleman rose to his feet to deal with this report. It is fair to say, however, that on the whole the Conservative Party tends in its dealings with the trade unions to be aggressive when it should be accommodating and to be timid when it should be bold. If the Conservatives would like me to hold a seminar on this question, I should be happy to do so.

Mr. Skinner

Will my right hon. Friend accept from me as one who did not support him in his attempt to defeat the firemen that I should like him to turn his attention to another very important matter of saving jobs? Is he aware that the Minister of Agriculture is meeting the Bakers Union representatives today with a view to saving 4,200 jobs which will be lost because of the recent agreement to close down Spillers? Is he aware that the argument about spare capacity is no longer acceptable to these men? They are being asked to work 12-hour instead of 8-hour shifts. Is my right hon. Friend aware that from 22nd April, if these jobs are not saved, there will be an overtime ban in the baking industry?

The Prime Minister

I am sure that on reflection my hon. Friend would not want to spread the belief that the firemen were defeated. They were not. They had an increase of 10 per cent. plus a pledge that their conditions would be brought up to the proper level over a two-year period. That was not a defeat but was a fair settlement for everybody. I hope that the information my hon. Friend gave me about the bakers will be brought out in the discussions with Ministers. That is the appropriate place for it to be discussed.

Mr. Powell

Is it not absurd and derogatory to this House that, unlike any other Minister, the Prime Minister should be expected to answer without notice questions of detailed fact? If this sort of programme is required, would it not be better on the radio?

The Prime Minister

It is true that the character of Prime Minister's Questions—I do not know about the answers—has changed over a period of years. They seem to have become much more an opportunity to make party points and to reply to them than used to be the case. I regret that development. As far as I can, I try to prepare myself for it as long as the House wishes to do it in that way, but I believe that there is a better way of spending 15 minutes.

Mr. Ashley

If my right hon. Friend manages to find time to meet the Spillers company, will he tell it that as a result of its ruthless action in sacking 8,000 men without notice—many of them in my constituency—there will be acute shortages of bread all over Britain? Will the Government now lean on this firm to reopen negotiations about the closing of those bakeries?

The Prime Minister

I shall refer what my hon. Friend said to the appropriate Ministers and they must take due note of it.

Mr. Burden

As there is a great deal of today still left, will the Prime Minister return to 10 Downing Street and ask questions about the position in the Armed Forces? If what is stated is true, it is tragic that men who have served and acquired the necessary expertise for a modern army are now leaving it. Is he aware that it will create a desperate situation in the future unless this man drain is stopped?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman need have no fears. As soon as I saw this report on the tape at 1 o'clock, I asked that inquiries should be made. I did not have the replies by the time I came here at 2.30. I shall have the reply and we shall be able to check and see. [Interruption.] I work during the morning and do not spend the morning reading the tape. I saw it at 1 o'clock.

My guess is that these figures are probably correct, because I dare say that whoever has let them out in order to influence opinion would have taken very good care to ensure that they were correct. If so, of course, they display a disturbing feature of the Armed Forces drain, although I understand that recruitment is going well.

But all this must be taken into account against the national situation, and I shall not be pushed on this matter any more than on any other. The Armed Forces will get a square deal—no more and no less.