HC Deb 18 April 1978 vol 948 cc247-50
Q1. Mr. Viggers

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 18th April 1978.

The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)

In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.

Mr. Viggers

Has the Prime Minister had time today to see the Press reports which show that 977 officers are queueing to leave the Army? Is he aware that this figure represents the officer strength of 30 battalions and that the Royal Air Force may be short of 200 pilots by 1980? Is the Prime Minister aware of the disgust within the Armed Services at the Government's attitude to pay and conditions? Is he aware that this is masked only by their sense of discipline and high sense of duty?

The Prime Minister

Yes, I have seen these interesting reports. They seem to me to be a piece of very useful information that someone has managed to get out during the period when the Government are considering this matter of pay. I congratulate the person whose initiative it was. We shall continue to consider the matter and we shall bring the answer before the House in due course.

Mr. Urwin

I fully appreciate the extensive nature of my right hon. Friend's commitments for today, but will he try to find a little time to talk to the delegation of councillors from Sunderland who are lobbying Ministers at Westminster this week? If my right hon. Friend is not able to do that, will he give urgent consideration to making an early visit to Wearside and the North-East to discuss these problems at greater length?

The Prime Minister

I am aware of the request by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) for me to receive a deputation, but it seems better that I should receive a deputation from the North-East as a whole. That is what I propose to do.

Mrs. Thatcher

May I press the Prime Minister a little further on the question which was put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers)? Is he aware that those figures reveal an appalling situation in response to the Pay Review Body's decision last year and that about 7,600 people have either left the Armed Forces or have applied to leave as a result of last year's pay review? Will he agree to look at this pay claim on merit, not within the 10 per cent. guideline, otherwise we shall be in danger of having some equipment without people to service it properly?

The Prime Minister

I am yet not sure what is the authority for these figures as no official announcement has been made. Clearly, someone has thought that it might help the pay claim if he produced them at this stage. I am unable to comment on whether or not they are accurate. If the Opposition know that they are accurate, perhaps they will tell me where they got the information. I should be interested to hear.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

What is your answer?

The Prime Minister

The general position of the pay claim of the Armed Forces will be considered, as it is being considered, and an answer will be given to the House, against the background of all the other pay claims, the responsibility of the Government for the defence of the country and every other factor that must be taken into account before a decision is reached.

Mrs. Thatcher

Is the Prime Minister saying that those figures are inaccurate or is he merely stalling? If they are accurate, is he prepared to take them into account in finalising the Armed Forces' pay claim?

The Prime Minister

I am saying that the figures have not been officially issued. I am not aware whether they are right or wrong. I am making inquiries about that. I believe that they were produced extremely fortuitously. I say for the third time that I shall be interested to see whether they are right or wrong. If they are right, it shows that there are better opportunities in civilian life than there are in the Armed Forces, or that many people think so. That is a factor that must be taken into account.

I cannot be pushed into decisions on these matters without having regard to the whole of the situation that faces the country. I shall not be so pushed. I have every sympathy with the Service men.

Mr. David Steel

May I ask the Prime Minister about Press reports on an entirely different matter? Do any of his meetings with his ministerial colleagues today relate to the Government assisting the passage of the Protection of Children Bill? If he could say something about that, it would be widely welcomed in all parts of the House.

The Prime Minister

I regret very much that the progress of that Bill was impeded. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is now considering the matter to see what assistance can be given to ensure that, with the will of the House, it gets to the statute book. Where there is, as I understand it, an overwhelming view by the House, not a divided view—and I believe that this is what nearly everyone, it not everyone, wants—that the Bill should reach the statute book, I believe that the Government should do their best to help.

Mr. Lee

Does my right hon. Friend agree that although that Bill should be given a fair wind, so also should the Bill which is being piloted through by my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Fletcher)? Will my right hon. Friend urge the Leader of the House to provide time for my hon. Friend's Bill too?

The Prime Minister

Whatever sympathies I may have with these Bills, I think it is necessary to be careful about interfering with Private Members' time and saying that the Government must take responsibility for every Bill that does not manage to get through the House. I favour my hon. Friend's Bill, but there is a big division of opinion about it— although it may involve only a small number of people—and, therefore, I do not think that the Government have the same responsibility there as they have in the case of the Protection of Children Bill

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