THE HON. MEMBER FOR KINROSS AND WEST PERTHSHIRE (Hansard, 6 April 1978)

§ Mr. Nicholas Fairbairn (Kinross and West Perthshire)
I am grateful to the Chair for being able to raise a matter which I consider raises important principles for the House and for the people of this country. Although it appears to be a personal issue, I have no personal hurt or feelings about it and it is not my intention to harass the Minister or his Department in any way. I hope that the Minister understands that. I am obliged to him for being present to reply to the debate. It raises grave matters for the House to which we need an answer which is not only truthful but which appears to be truthful and which can stand scrutiny.
I shall give the facts of the matter. In May 1977 I was invited by the president of the mess of HMS "Caledonia" in Rosyth dockyard, which is near to my home, to address a mess dinner in July 830 of that year. On 23rd June I was informed that that dinner had been cancelled. I accepted that explanation but I wrote in the following terms to the president of the mess. Being an advocate and an episcopalian and a Scot I have a naturally suspicious mind and I would like to be assured that there was a genuine reason for the cancellation of that dinner and that somewhere along the line I was not regarded as persona non grata personally or politically. The effect of a new date of course would confound my suspicions. I was assured that that was true. Thereafter I discovered that the dinner had been held and that another person had been asked to speak at it. Therefore, I felt it right to raise the matter with the Minister.
On 7th December 1977 I wrote a letter which inter alia included the following remarks: This refusal caused gross embarrassment to my host and to the naval commanders of the base including C-in-C Northern Command and the Admiral in Scotland who were bidden by your Department to silence. My host was required to explain to me that dinner had been cancelled, which it had not. Will you please kindly explain to me for what reason I was held to be politically unacceptable to address wardroom dinner and also inform me on whose instructions the letter was written to the Captain informing me that the invitation to me was to be rescinded? The letter is on file.

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)
Outrageous.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
On 30th January I received a reply from the Under-Secretary of State. What I am about to say is important. The Minister was ill. He had a most unfortunate illness, as we all have from time to time. For a period he was ill, but he graciously undertook his duties, and I pay tribute to that fact. I do not therefore wish to prey on the question of the delay.
Nevertheless, on 30th January I received a detailed letter signed by the Minister which read inter alia: As you know Ministers vet all invitations for Members of both Houses of Parliament to visit defence establishments for whatever purpose, and we thus have a good idea of those who have a genuine interest in defence matters. In particular I make it my personal concern to ensure that those Members invited to 'social functions' do indeed have a sustained interest in defence and have demonstrated such. My inquiries lead me to believe you have not paid any visits to HM ships or establishments, or to any Army or Royal Air Force establishment since your election to Parliament. Furthermore, I do not recall your 831 attendance at the two Navy debates I have fielded as Navy Minister, or for that matter any of the defence debates when I have been in attendance. Finally I arranged, with attendant publicity, for the Royal Navy presentation team to visit the House of Commons on 30th December 1977. As I had received your letter I made a particular point to check on your attendance. Unless you slipped in and out during the presentation while the room was in darkness I did not notice your presence among the 30 or 40 Members who were there. When I am confident that an hon. Member has demonstrated a genuine interest in defence matters I may feel much better disposed to encourage social visits.

§ Mr. Ian Gow (Eastbourne)
Is that really true?

§ Mr. Nicholas Ridley (Cirencester and Tewkesbury)
What arrogance!

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton
Disgraceful.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
None of the allegations in that letter was accurate or true. But, forgiving that, what I find unacceptable is that that was not a genuine, although much researched and time consuming, answer. In other words, it was an utterly false and untrue explanation of why I had been excluded from that dinner.
I had the courtesy of meeting the Minister and his superior, the Secretary of State. Following that I received a letter from the right hon. Gentleman himself, in which he said that the Under-Secretary of State for the Navy had declined to issue an invitation as being outside the guidelines for visits by Members. It went on: He asks me to confirm in writing what he has already told you personally "— which the Minister had the courtesy to do— that he completely withdraws the explanation offered in his letter and any suggestion of a lack of genuine interest in defence matters on your part, and that it was quite erroneous to suggest that such was the reason for not approving your visit. In other words, the explanation given, which took six or seven weeks to contrive and which took eight paragraphs to express, was a deliberate falsehood. That is something that causes me concern—

§ Mr. Gow
And the country.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
As a result I wrote to the Prime Minister, and it was because of that that I had the meeting which resulted in a letter. My right hon. Friend 832 the Member for Amersham and Chesham (Sir I. Gilmour) wrote thereafter to the Secretary of State. My right hon. Friend has asked me to express his regret for his absence tonight owing to public duty abroad. I regret that my right hon. Friend is not present.
But my right hon. Friend asked the Secretary of State, and the answer that we now have is still that I fell without a guideline on procedure. But if I fell without a guideline on procedure, I think that the House of Commons has a right to know upon what basis a Minister of the Crown is entitled to say that a Member of the House of Commons can be excluded from a visit to a defence establishment or any other establishment on the basis of his interest or his disinterest. If there are guidelines, we are entitled to know what they are. What was the circumstances in which I fell without them?

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton
Is my hon. and learned Friend a security risk?

§ Mr. Fairbairn
The Minister said in his letter that I was not a security risk.
What are the guidelines which I or any other Member, or any Cabinet Minister or Shadow Cabinet Minister, fall without? Also, if so reasonable, so determinable, so explicable, so obvious and so agreed an explanation was the explanation, why did the Navy have to be told to tell a lie to me? If the Navy was not told to tell a lie to me, as the Navy did tell a lie to me, why did the Navy feel it to be its duty to tell a lie to me?
I accept the Minister's word in his letter that the Navy was not required to tell a lie to me. Indeed, I accept the Minister's word as often as he changes it. But it is important to know why the duty was put upon the Navy to deny it, and why the Minister thought it necessary, if there was so innocent an explanation as guidelines, that he should contrive over seven weeks a letter in eight paragraphs which gave an explanation which he is required to withdraw as totally false.
Others might say that it was a lie. I cannot say that it is a lie. All that I can say is that I cannot conceive an explanation as to why the Navy was required to give one explanation, the Minister gave another, and his superior has required him to withdraw it and give a third.
833 The House of Commons is being told that Members of it, unlike members of the public, cannot visit defence establishments if they fall outside the guidelines on procedure.

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton
Unpublished.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Unpublished. Those are guidelines and procedures about which no one knows.
Unless the Government wish to have the words "tyrant" and "truant"—

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton
Dictator.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
—and "dictator"—put upon their coat tails tonight, they must give us an explanation, and a true explanation, not only as to why I was banned and was given false explanations but as to who else will be and has hitherto been banned.

§ Mr. Robert Banks (Harrogate)
I think that we have here a case of great importance, because the Government are clearly in a complete and utter muddle over the guidelines that they may or may not have.
I should like to give evidence to the House of a position that has gravely affected me. I received an invitation to attend a weekend reserve officers' course to address the officers and was told that I would not be allowed to do this. I then took the matter further with the Secretary of State, who told me that had they offered to give me dinner I could have attended happily.
It appears that, on the one hand, I would have been allowed to address those officers on a full stomach, and, on the other hand, if perhaps my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn) had gone on an empty stomach, he might have been allowed to address the officers of HMS "Caledonia".
Therefore we have a great muddle here. The Government do not know which way they are going. We look to the Minister to clarify the situation tonight.

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Navy (Mr. A. E. P. Duffy)
I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West 834 Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn) for the manner in which he introduced this debate. I understand his feeling and that of his hon. Friends. But equally I know them well enough to know that they will bear with me. I shall try to be as helpful as I can not only to the hon. and learned Member but to his hon. Friends.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and I have already had discussions with the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West Perthshire about events that followed the proposal that he should be invited to attend a guest night dinner in the wardroom of HMS "Caledonia" last July and to make an after-dinner speech. In the course of those discussions I agreed to withdraw unreservedly those remarks to which the hon. and learned Member took exception and my right hon. Friend agreed to review the procedures under which MPs visit Service establishments.
My right hon. Friend subsequently reflected the outcome of these discussions in a letter which he sent to the hon. and learned Member on 16th February, a letter which was itself the subject of consultation. This letter has since been supplemented by a letter from my right hon. Friend to the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour), who, I understand, cannot be present tonight.
I trust the hon. and learned Member will understand, therefore, that I was a little surprised when I learned that he still considered that there were issues outstanding. Nevertheless, I now repeat the apology I conveyed to him privately.
I am pleased to have this opportunity to point to the work done by my colleagues and myself to foster visits to the Services by hon. Members. I myself have been Minister for the Navy for nearly two years and in that time I have made arrangements for hon. Members to visit ships and shore establishments on over 80 occasions.

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton
It is not enough.

§ Mr. Duffy
I agree that it is not enough.
In addition, 92 hon. Members attended the Silver Jubilee Review of the Fleet at Spithead in June last year. That is a record which I am prepared to set against 835 those of my predecessors. Those totals have not been achieved without effort on my part—as I think the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) recognises. What he said is absolutely right. I have not awaited requests from hon. Members but have gone out of my way to ensure that they are aware of the opportunities which are available to them. The hon. Gentleman is aware of that.

§ Mr. Ridley
rose—

§ Mr. Duffy
If I am to reply adequately to the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West Perthshire, I hope that I may be permitted to continue.
Nevertheless, it is important to avoid placing an undue burden on Service units by allowing them to be exposed to completely unco-ordinated requests for visits and also to avoid involving the Services in political controversy.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
rose—

§ Mr. Duffy
No; I did not interrupt the hon. and lerned Gentleman and I know that he will return the courtesy. It is only on grounds of time that I do not give way.
My colleagues and I therefore observe certain procedures in approving visits by hon. Members to defence establishments. Those procedures reflect the general understanding reached between my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) when he was Secretary of State for Defence and the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) when he was the Opposition spokesman on defence.
A regular series of visits are arranged which are notified through the usual channels. These enable us to provide consistent briefing and to avoid any suggestion of bias in the selection of participants. Our procedures provide that other visits should normally be confined to three categories: first, visits in which a Member has a clear constituency interest—

§ Mr. Fairbairn
I live within three miles of it.

§ Mr. Duffy
—second, visits by Select Committees; and third, visits by a right hon. or hon. Gentleman who is a Front Bench defence spokesman.
836 Now I come to this debate, which relates to the subject of the banning of the hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire … from attending a mess dinner on HMS 'Caledonia', Rosyth". I have not banned the hon. and learned Member from a defence establishment. If I had ever taken it in my mind to do so, I should, of course, as a matter of common courtesy, have mentioned it to the hon. Member concerned.

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton
But the hon. Gentleman did not.

§ Mr. Duffy
In the case in question, HMS "Caledonia" sought my permission to extend an invitation to the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West Perthshire to attend a guest night dinner and to give an after-dinner speech. As my right hon. Friend said in his letter of 16th February, I declined to authorise the issue of such an invitation as being outside the guidelines for visits by Members".

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Will the Minister give way?

§ Mr. Duffy
I shall not, in view of the time. The hon. and learned Member has had half the time available.

§ Mr. Winterton
The Minister has had over half the time.

§ Mr. Duffy
I have not. I took the view—this is perhaps arguable—that the making of a speech on such an occasion would breach the long-established practice of avoiding political questions on Service premises, and having declined permission to issue an invitation I had no reason to suppose that an invitation had been issued.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Why does the Minister not give the real answer, then?

§ Mr. Duffy
Now let me take up some of the points raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
rose—

§ Mr. Duffy
I am trying to help the hon. and learned Gentleman, if he will allow me to proceed. Contrary to what he suggested in his speech, the guest night dinner was cancelled. A normal mess dinner was held on 7th July last in HMS "Caledonia" but no outside speakers were invited.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Yes, they were, and I can tell the Minister who they were.

§ Mr. Duffy
Secondly, I am asked what explanation or lies were directed to the captain of "Caledonia" and to Flag Officer Scotland and Northern Ireland. A letter was written to the captain of HMS "Caledonia" saying that I had not agreed to the proposal to extend an invitation to the hon. and learned Member. This letter was copied to FOSNI. There was no other correspondence, as far as I am aware.

§ Mr. Ridley
Did the Minister send a copy of this letter to my hon. and learned Friend?

§ Mr. Duffy
Thirdly—

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Will the Minister give way?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton)
Order.

§ Mr. Duffy
I was asked what is the basis for the guidelines. I was then asked more specifically what are the guidelines. As I have said, my right hon. Friend has offered to discuss future arrangements for visits with the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham, and I know that hon. Members will understand that I cannot anticipate the outcome of these discussions.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Will the Minister give way?

§ Mr. Duffy
Finally, if I may come to the question raised by the hon. Member for Harrogate (Mr. Banks)—

§ Mr. Gow
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Mr. Duffy.

§ Mr. Duffy
If I may reply to the hon. Member for Harrogate, I hope that the House will see that I am trying to be helpful. The hon. Gentleman will know that the matter he raised does not really relate to me. He might have raised it with my hon. Friend in the debate on the Royal Air Force last Monday afternoon.

§ Mr. Banks
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way because this is a very important debate. My hon. and learned Friend is seeking to intervene on some very important matters. I would not 838 wish the Minister to use the points that I was making as a detraction from the main cause of this debate. I used them only to show what a muddle the Government are in.

§ Mr. Duffy
Then I cannot understand why the hon. Gentleman intervened.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
rose—

Hon. Members
Give way.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Hon. Members
Resign.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. Hon. Members must listen to the explanation which the Minister gives. If the Minister does not choose to give way, he cannot be pressed to do so.

§ Mr. Duffy
The hon. and learned Gentleman will know that he has received a letter from my right hon. Friend, as indeed has the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott).
I now resume my speech, having taken up those points.
During my absence this week in America, where I was visiting units of the United States Navy and SACLANT, a proposal reached my office from the Port Admiral Rosyth that arrangements should be made for a visit in the near future by hon. Members whose constituencies represent the main catchment area for the base civilian work force. I shall be writing shortly to the hon. Members concerned, but I am glad to take this opportunity to extend the invitation to the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West Perthshire.
But, returning to the proposed invitation to the hon. and learned Member to attend a guest night dinner and to make a speech, I would refer him to the letter sent him by my right hon. Friend, which confirmed what I had already told him personally. To the explanation given in that letter I should like to add only that I was quite unaware of the hon. and learned Member's private visits to HMS "Caledonia", HMS "Cochrane" and Rosyth dockyard, or of his participation in the naval hospitality bureau at Rosyth, until he drew our attention to these activities and interests in February of this year.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Will the Minister give way?

§ Mr. Duffy
No.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
Give me an explanation now then.

§ Mr. Duffy
That is what I am trying to do if only the hon. and learned Gentleman will be patient.

§ Mr. Gow
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
The Minister must be heard out.

§ Mr. Duffy
Turning to the wider question of procedures—

§ Mr. Gow
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for a Minister of the Crown to purport to reply to an Adjournment debate while giving no reply at all to the points that have been raised?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
That is not a point of order. The Minister is now in the process of replying to the debate.

§ Mr. Duffy
Turning to the wider question of procedures governing visits by hon. Members to defence establishments, my right hon. Friend told the hon. and learned Gentleman in his letter that he would seek by a re-examination of the procedures to avoid possible future misunderstandings.

§ Mr. Fairbairn
That is a lie.

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton
It is a downright bloody lie.

§ Mr. Duffy
My right hon. Friend is already in touch with the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham on this matter, but I should like to make clear now—

§ Mr. Ridley
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I distinctly heard my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield 840 (Mr. Winterton) say that the Minister had told a deliberate lie. Are you asking my hon. Friend to withdraw that statement? If not—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. If the word "lie" were used in connection with any Member of this House it must be withdrawn. If it—

§ Mr. Ridley
rose—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. Will the hon. Gentleman resume his seat forthwith? Mr. Duffy.

§ Mr. Duffy
I should like to make clear—

§ Mr. Fairbairn
On a point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker—

§ Mr. Duffy
I should like to make clear now that it is not our intention to inhibit hon. Members from attending purely social occasions, be they in a wardroom or in a ratings' mess, provided, of course, that such participation is not used for political purposes. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen fully share our anxiety to avoid any embarrassment to the Services.
In conclusion, let me assure the hon. and learned Member once again that there is not and never has been any question of imposing a ban upon visits by him or his friends. On the contrary, I have gone out of my way to encourage such visits from both sides of the House. This was acknowledged by one of his hon. Friends in last year's Royal Navy debate. Moreover, I have received many kind letters from his hon. Friends thanking me for the arrangements I have made—