Prison Population (Hansard, 6 April 1978)

§ 9. Mr. Knox
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people were serving terms of imprisonment in Her Majesty's prisons at the latest available date; and what proportion of them were in prisons constructed before 1900.

§ Dr. Summerskill
On 28th February the sentenced population in Prison Department establishments in England and Wales was 28,349, of which about 65 per cent. were in establishments first used for the purpose before 1900, although, of course, most of these establishments have been added to and improved since then.

§ Mr. Knox
Does the Minister agree that there are far too many people in prison at present and too many in buildings which are much too old? What hope is there of reforming prisoners if they are living in conditions such as those? What is the Minister doing to reduce the size of the prison population and to make sure that in more modern prisons fewer prisoners are housed?

§ Dr. Summerskill
Within the limits of financial constraint, every effort is being made to reduce overcrowding and to expand capacity. There are plans to provide for the completion of building schemes already in progress, so that in the next five years there will be an additional 4,700 places. The picture is not all black, because during my time at the Home Office I have had the honour to open a purpose-built prison.

§ Mr. Edward Lyons
Will the Minister bear in mind that most of our prisons were built as human cattle pens—those such as Leeds and Wandsworth, and many others—and that until we have modern prisons there is very little hope of rehabilitation, or of prisoners doing useful work? Will the Minister, therefore, press very strongly on the Chancellor of the Exchequer the view that it is in the interests of the prevention of crime and the reduction of the commission of crime to have more modern prisons, where there is more chance of rehabilitation and of prisoners doing useful work?

§ Dr. Summerskill
I agree with my hon. Friend that the most overcrowded establishments tend to be the local prisons, especially in the North. But we have noted the recommendation of the Advisory Council on the Penal System that perhaps the best way to reduce the prison population is to reduce the average length of sentence rather than necessarily swinging to non-custodial penalties.

§ Mr. Charles Irving
Will the hon. Lady consider the fact that there are at least three open prisons which have been closed and are not being used at the moment, and seriously consider bringing back into use some of those prisons, which could relieve some of the disgraceful and degrading conditions which exist in the closed prisons?

§ Dr. Summerskill
It so happens that the prison that I opened in 1974 was an open prison, and it is still open. The reason for the tendency to close open prisons is that the type of person who is now going into prison tends to require strict custodial treatment.

§ Mr. Flannery
Would my hon. Friend accept it from me that on a recent visit with some of my hon. Friends to the women's prison at Holloway we were alarmed to find that almost 80 per cent. of the women were in for stealing—mainly shoplifting—and that, in personal conversations the staff, whom we found to be very humane, we gathered that they felt that far too many people were put in prison for trivial offences? Does this suggestion not offer us one means of preventing overcrowding in our prisons? Will she take it up?

§ Dr. Summerskill
Whether someone is sent to prison is a matter for the courts, but, as I said in reply to an earlier question, the courts are now being given every encouragement to impose non-custodial sentences.

§ Mr. Speed
Is the Minister aware that we would agree with an earlier reply that she gave, that perhaps shorter, sharper sentences would be the answer? Is there any evidence linking the rate of recidivism with the age of the prison? I have seen none myself.

§ Dr. Summerskill
To correct the hon. Gentleman, I said "short"; I did not say "sharp"—that was his Freudian 622 word. We have no evidence at the moment on the subject of recividism and age of prison.