HC Deb 04 April 1978 vol 947 cc230-3
Q1. Mr. Blaker

asked the Prime Minister if he will dismiss the Secretary of State for Social Services.

The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)

I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) on 16th March.

Mr. Blaker

Is the Prime Minister aware that, as a result of a recent speech by the former Secretary of State for Social Services, there is now a conflict of evidence between her, the present Secretary of State and Lady Falkender about the social security files of Mr. Norman Scott and whether they were destroyed or transferred to 10 Downing Street, and, if so, for what purpose? Does not this leave the present Secretary of State in an unsatisfactory position? How does the Prime Minister propose that the matter should be cleared up?

The Prime Minister

I thought that the hon. Gentleman was rising to apologise to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for not following up the fact that he had alleged that my right hon. Friend had intervened improperly to waive proceedings against a private individual. I am surprised that he has not seen fit to withdraw that allegation, which was repeated by the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley) after my right hon. Friend had given his denial. The hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington also owes my right hon. Friend an apology.

As to the particular circumstances, I have nothing to inquire into further. With these continuing questions, I am wondering whether the hon. Member for Black-pool, South (Mr. Blaker) is more concerned with governmental proprieties or with pursuing a personal vendetta against the former Secretary of State and my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson).

Mr. Ashton

Is my right hon. Friend aware that my wife will be delighted that he is not going to dismiss the Secretary of State for Social Services, because from today, along with a few million other women, she will be getting £2.50 a week in child benefit and she thinks that the Secretary of State is doing a marvellous job?

The Prime Minister

It is true that there is a substantial increase in child benefit payable from this week. I do not want to disillusion my hon. Friend's wife, but the sum she will get will be not £2.50 but £2.30 a week. However, I hope that this will not destroy her confidence in the Secretary of State.

Sir J. Eden

Is there not another reason for sacking the Secretary of State? Does the Prime Minister have any idea how long it takes to get a consultant in the National Health Service? Is he aware that even in urgent cases in the Bournemouth area it can sometimes take 30 weeks or more? Does he care about this scandalous situation, and, if so, what is he going to do about it?

The Prime Minister

The situation in the Health Service is not as satisfactory as I should like. There are a great many people, more than 500,000, waiting for treatment, and that number has persisted, although it is rather higher now, ever since the formation of the NHS. We should improve the position as quickly as we can. But I find it odd that the Conservative Party should propose additional expenditure when all that its Members consistently do is to tell us that we should reduce public expenditure.

Mr. Dalyell

Far from dismissing the Secretary of State, will my right hon. Friend ask him to prepare legislation in the light of our debate on 3rd March to create conditions in which people can get kidneys for transplant?

The Prime Minister

I note my hon. Friend's views. I know of his concern and I am aware of his Bill. However, I am told that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State proposes to launch a new campaign tomorrow, which I hope will be taken seriously by the House and by others, to ensure that the transfer of kidneys after death can be made easier and to ensure that as many as possible follow the proposal that is made so that other sufferers may take advantage.

Mr. Blaker

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

I ask the hon. Gentleman to wait for 10 minutes until the end of Question Time.

Mr. Blaker

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, Mr. Speaker, I intend to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Later—

Mr. Blaker

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the Prime Minister will check the record, I believe he will find that I did not make the statement about the Secretary of State for Social Services which he attributed to me.

Mr. Speaker

That is a matter for the Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister

I am ready to do so. But I hope that the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley), who was associated with the dirty tricks brigade on this occasion, will make his apology, because I know that he said it.

Hon. Members

Withdraw.

Later—

Mr. Adley

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We realise that the Prime Minister does not like persistent questioning, and we also realise that if the Secretary of State for Social Services had made a statement, for which some of us have been asking, these allegations would not have arisen.

May I reply to the Prime Minister's insult—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—by asking him, through you, Mr. Speaker, to let me have a letter containing his allegations, and I shall deal with them?

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is not a point of order.