Staffing Levels (Hansard, 3 April 1978)

§ 25. Mr. Skinner
asked the Minister for the Civil Service what recent discussions he has had with the appropriate trade union leaders regarding staffing levels in the Civil Service.

§ 29. Mr. Wrigglesworth
asked the Minister for the Civil Service what are the current levels of staffing in the Civil Service.

§ The Minister of State, Civil Service Department (Mr. Charles R. Morris)
Discussions about staffing levels are part of the normal process of consultation with the appropriate Civil Service trade union leaders. As my hon. Friends will appreciate, the Government have taken steps to contain the size and cost of the Civil Service, and will continue to do so in the future. At the latest available date, 1st January 1978, there were 738,000 civil servants. This is some 8,200 lower than the corresponding 1977 figure.

§ Mr. Skinner
Have my right hon. Friend's negotiations with the various trade unions been hampered by the proposed cuts in various Departments? Have the threatened cuts in the DHSS resulted in the fact that old people are not being visited to the extent they should when claiming supplementary benefit? Should we not try to prevent this situation, and will he assist by telling the Ministers concerned that we shall not wear this any longer?

§ Mr. Morris
I shall convey that point to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, but I remind my hon. Friend that public expenditure cuts have had an impact on all sections of the community. It would have been wrong to exclude the Civil Service from those cuts.

§ Mr. Wrigglesworth
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the figures quoted prove that much of the criticism made of the numbers of civil servants is unjustified? Do they not disprove the myth that the Civil Service is constantly growing in size? Does he also agree that cash limits have led to larger cuts in numbers in the Civil Service than were intended by the public expenditure cuts? Will he review the position and consider increasing numbers in such areas as were suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner)?

§ Mr. Morris
In reply to my hon. Friend's first point, I must point out that clobbering the Civil Service has become almost a national sport. It is right to criticise the Civil Service, but I believe that any criticism should be informed.
On the subject of cash limits, this has involved particular Departments in under-spending their allocations. I shall bear in mind the point made earlier about home visits.

§ Mr. Anthony Grant
On the subject of dispersal of civil servants, does that process have any effect on staffing levels, and is the Minister satisfied with having achieved only 9 per cent. of his target figures of 30,000 for dispersal?

§ Mr. Morris
The question of the dispersal of the Civil Service will be dealt with in a later Question, but I am satisfied with the progress that is being made in implementing the dispersal proposals envisaged in the Hardman Report. The dispersal programme was scheduled to take place over a 10-year period, from 1974 to 1984.

§ Mr. Pardoe
The Minister said that the number in the Civil Service had dropped by 8,000 compared with the previous year. Will he go a little further and say how the figure has changed since 1970 or 1974, and what criteria are used by the Government in deciding the appropriate and efficient levels of manpower in any particular public service?

§ Mr. Morris
The size of the Civil Service is determined by the tasks which this House gives it to undertake. I had no responsibility for the Civil Service during the period from 1970 to 1974.