HC Deb 03 April 1978 vol 947 cc4-7
2. Mr. van Straubenzee

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement on the paper entitled "Examination Achievement in Wales: Literacy and Numeracy", prepared for the Welsh national conference on education on 10th March.

6. Mr. Wyn Roberts

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what positive steps he proposes to take following the publication of the papers "Literacy and Numeracy" and "Examination Achievement in Wales".

The Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Barry Jones)

A very constructive discussion of educational matters took place at the conference in Mold on 10th March and I am arranging for an account of this to be published. Thereafter I intend to meet local education authorities and other bodies throughout Wales and consider with them how further progress can be made to combat the measure of under-achievement revealed in these papers.

Mr. van Straubenzee

Does not the Minister feel it strange that, in a paper that regrettably identifies clearly that the less able child in Wales is disadvantaged against his counterpart in England, there is only a passing reference to the principal difference between the education sustained by children in Wales and in England, namely, that in Wales a proportion of time is spent on the compulsory teaching of a language which, however worthy of preservation, as it certainly is, culturally, is nevertheless in terms of the modern world a dead language?

Mr. Barry Jones

The hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) spoke to me in an accent which was not Welsh. I think that his remarks were insensitive. It is required by the local education authorities in Wales that all the children should be enabled to have an understanding of Welsh, certainly while they are at the primary school stage. I do not believe one whit that it prevents the Welsh nation or the Welsh people from being able to take their place in the modern world.

Mr. Roberts

Does the Minister agree that there is no positive evidence to show that there is a difference in attainment between Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers? Does he further agree that, judging by the results of the recent Institute of Mathematics test in six authorities throughout England and Wales, the standard of attainment in numeracy is low among school leavers in England as well as in Wales?

Finally, I should like to ask the Minister these two specific questions. Has he come to a firm conclusion about changing the date of the CSE examination in Wales so that it does not fall after the spring bank holiday leaving date? Secondly, has he decided to give positive encouragement to children to take the CSE by the Mode 3 method rather than the Mode 1 method?

Mr. Barry Jones

I believe that the hon. Gentleman has in his latter remarks raised two very serious points. Those points were raised at the conference held at Mold. I particularly refer to the inability of pupils in Wales to enter for the same subject in both the O-level and CSE examinations of the Welsh Joint Education Committee. I shall certainly be contacting the examination board in Wales on that matter.

On the hon. Gentleman's second point about the conference at Mold, it is true, it seems, that the comparative unpopularity of school-based assessment, including Mode 3, is important. I shall be asking the examination board again to look at the matter.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. May I ask for the control of Celtic exuberance? May we have briefer supplementary questions and briefer answers?

Mr. Cledwyn Hughes

Will my hon. Friend totally disregard the absurd supplementary question asked by the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) which demonstrated, for the second time, that he knows absolutely nothing about Wales and would be best out of the Chamber on these occasions? Will he confirm that the standard of educational attainment in those schools in Wales in which Welsh is the first language is very high?

Mr. Barry Jones

Yes, I can confirm the latter point. With regard to the provocative and perhaps insensitive remarks of the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee), the best thing for me to say is that perhaps he was off beam a little.

Mr. Hooson

Does the Minister agree that, nevertheless, the two reports disclose a disquieting feature of Welsh education, namely, the number of children who lack literacy and numeracy? Whereas the reports concentrate on secondary education, do not the findings indicate that the real weakness is in primary education in certain areas in Wales which are not the Welsh-speaking areas at all?

Mr. Barry Jones

I beleive that the hon. and learned Member has put his finger on a very important factor in the education of all our children in Britain and certainly in Wales, which is the quality in the primary school sector. That is the foundation for every child's education in Wales.

I take this opportunity to say that we are not complacent about the educational attainment throughout Wales. When the record of the Mold conference has been delivered to the education service participants in Wales, we will expect to take strong action.