HC Deb 21 November 1977 vol 939 cc1089-92
33. Mr. Canavan

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he next expects to meet representatives of the trade unions in the Civil Service.

35. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the future of the Pay Research Unit.

36. Mr. John Garrett

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he proposes to reinstitute the pay research system for determining Civil Service salaries.

37. Mrs. Bain

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what recent discussions he has had with the Civil Service unions.

Mr. Charles R. Morris

I met representatives of the Civil Service National Whitley Council with my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Lord Privy Seal on Thursday 17th November, and I am pleased to announce that agreement has been reached between the Government and the National Staff Side for the immediate reactivation of the Civil Service Pay Research Unit to provide evidence for the settlement from 1st April 1979, subject, as in the past, to the provisions of any national pay policy.

A number of important changes to the pay research system have been agreed. In particular there will be a Pay Research Unit Board, with an independent chairman and members, to safeguard the independence and impartiality of the unit in all its work. The board will also be asked to investigate the problems of applying pay research to scientists and produce its own recommendations, which both the Official Side and the Institution of Professional Civil Servants agree in advance to accept, as to how pay research for scientists should be applied in 1980. I shall be placing a copy of the full text of the agreement in the Library of the House.

Mr. Canavan

I thank my hon. Friend for that comprehensive reply, but why are the Government refusing to restore normal collective bargaining to the Civil Service trade unions in time for the next wage settlement in April 1978 and making them wait until April 1979? Why is there this discrimination against the thousands of workers who make up the backbone of the Civil Service, while at the other end of the income scale there are people such as retired admirals and retired judges breaking the pay policy with pension increases, given this week, of more than 17 per cent., which in some cases amount to an increase of as much as £40 per week?

Mr. Morris

While I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the points he has made, I do not accept that the Government are discriminating in terms of pay against civil servants. Under the agreed timetable, a normal pay research exercise takes well over a year to complete, because it involves making detailed inquiries in a large number of separate firms. Taking that together with the time required to implement the improvement, we see our proposal of immediate reactivation, leading to a settlement in April 1979, as being reasonable. That is the first date by which a full survey is technically practicable.

Mr. Hamilton

Can my hon. Friend confirm that the staff side is entirely in agreement with the proposal that he has made? Will he also comment on the assertion that was made to me a week ago that some civil servants, as a result of the last two years of the pay policy, have lost one year's increase? Will he confirm or deny that?

Mr. Morris

The National Staff Side has understandable reservations about some of the features of the agreement that is now being entered into. The answer to my hon. Friend's second point, about whether civil servants have been discriminated against during phases 1 and 2 of the Government's pay policy, is that the very reverse is true. The criticism I usually receive is that this Government have been over-generous towards civil servants rather than the reverse.

Mr. Garrett

Will my hon. Friend understand that many of us welcome the proposal for a Pay Research Unit Board, which shows a very rapid response by his Department to some of the recommendations of the Expenditure Committee just a few months ago? Will he explain further what he means by the reinstitution of the pay research system from April 1979? Does that mean that until then civil servants will have to rely for any pay increases upon the cash limits?

Mr. Morris

No, that is not the position. Civil servants will receive a pay increase, with an operative date of 1st April 1978, which will be in conformity with the Government's guidelines in respect of pay.

Mrs. Bain

Are we to take it from his reply that the Minister does not accept what the unions say—that a limited but adequate investigation could take place between now and 1978, thereby giving a reasonable settlement to the unions? Beyond that, can the Minister indicate whether the Pay Research Unit will be given any powers to investigate the implications of the London weighting allowance in terms of job dispersal?

Mr. Morris

The London weighting is outside the normal ambit of the Pay Research Unit's activities. But the hon. Lady is absolutely right—the individual Civil Service unions have reservations about the issue of the operative date of 1st April 1978. The idea of a limited Pay Research Unit exercise on the 1st April 1978 basis is wholly impracticable because of the teechnical arguments to which I have referred.

Mr. Hayhoe

Is the Minister aware that we welcome the agreement made between him, the Prime Minister and the National Staff Side and that we particularly welcome the introduction of an independent element into the board which will now be responsible for the Pay Research Unit?

Mr. Morris

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's comments and equally grateful for the co-operation shown by the National Staff Side of the Civil Service in this matter.

Mr. Wrigglesworth

Will not the Government think again about updating the figures that the Pay Research Unit has in time for the 1978 settlement? Would not this give a much more orderly situation for next year rather than the shambles of a situation in which many different claims are put in with no bench-mark against which to set them?

Mr. Morris

I well appreciate that my hon. Friend has a great deal of experience of the Civil Service. But I would emphasise to him and to civil servants generally that the Government never discriminate against civil servants on the question of pay and will not discriminate against them.