HC Deb 17 May 1977 vol 932 cc217-20
13. Dr. Hampson

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps she is taking to encourage the study of engineering at school and in further education institutions.

Mr. Oakes

My right hon. Friend is altering the awards arrangements and is examining the possibility of a scholarships scheme with the aim of attracting more able students into engineering and other courses of value to industry. The University Grants Committee, the Council for National Academic Awards and the Technician Education Council are reviewing the structure and content of engineering courses with the needs of students and industry in mind. In the schools my right hon. Friend attaches greater importance to improving the teaching of mathematics and physics than to the development of engineering as a separate subject.

Dr. Hampson

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that for several months both myself and members of his own party have been trying to get the Secretary of State and Ministers in the Department of Industry to release to hon. Members the most effective document and the best analysis of the problem, which is the result of a joint working party from various Departments on education, industry and management? Will he explain why, given the great debate, only Members of Parliament seem to be excluded from seeing the document, which is not secret in any sense as so many others have access to it? Will the hon. Gentleman at least release the statistical appendices so that we may see the terms of reference and hard information, which will enable us to debate effectively what he is doing?

Mr. Oakes

The document is to be published. I welcome the initiative that the hon. Gentleman is taking. This is not a party political matter but is something the nation needs.

Mr. Pavitt

Is my hon. Friend aware that in recent years in areas of inner city deprivation, such as Brent, South, where there are excellent schools of engineering, a large gap has grown between the apprenticeship schemes offered locally by engineering firms and the graduates who emerge from the colleges? Will my hon. Friend have discussions with Ministers in other Departments in an attempt to bridge the gap between what is done in the education sector and what is being done in apprenticeship schemes in engineering factories?

Mr. Oakes

I think that the number of vacancies is more a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. However, I appreciate the point that my hon. Friend makes. Steps are being taken both nationally and at local level to ensure that the gap is narrowed.

Mr. Nelson

In view of the importance of encouraging better attitudes to engineering among students in higher education, is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the priority given by the Science Research Council to the sponsoring of engineering exercises and research projects in universities is sufficient compared with other scientific projects?

Mr. Oakes

Yes, I am satisfied, but we are always looking at ways in which the links between universities, polytechnics, schools and industry, especially in respect of engineering, can be strengthend.

Dr. Bray

Does my hon. Friend agree that the greatest scope for increasing both the numbers and the quality of recruitment to the engineering profession lies with girls? Is he aware that there is still a great deal of prejudice, both in industry and schools, against the adoption of engineering by girls as a profession?

Mr. Oakes

I think that there is prejudice, and it worries me. One of the difficulties, too, is that girls do not realise the possibilities that may well be open to them in the engineering professions in future. That is something in which there should be co-operation between industry and education.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

Is the Minister aware that the Engineering Employers' Federation is gravely concerned about the lack of knowledge and interest in secondary schools concerning engineering and commerce? Although the federation recognises that it could have done more to bridge the gap and to improve knowledge, may I ask whether the Minister accepts that it would be a good thing if teachers could get out into industry and commerce as part of their course before qualifying as teachers so that they do not go straight from school to college and from college back to school?

Mr. Oakes

In reply to a previous Question my right hon. Friend agreed that the more experience a teacher can have, the better. This is one of the aspects that will be discussed in the Green Paper.