HC Deb 23 March 1977 vol 928 cc1266-7
7. Mr. Robin F. Cook

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the latest figure for the prison population in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Harry Ewing)

On 8th March 1977 the population of Scottish penal establishments was 4,940. Subject to the limitations on public expenditure, my right hon. Friend is considering whether any measures can be taken to avoid unnecessary detention, particularly in the areas of remand in custody and imprisonment in default of payment of fine.

Mr. Cook

Does my hon. Friend accept that Members of all parties who visited Edinburgh Prison earlier this month very much appreciated the arrangements made for the visit? Is he aware that we were all impressed by how much more difficult the task of staff is made in caring for those who are necessarily in prison by the large number of those whose imprisonment may not be necessary? Surely my hon. Friend now accepts that community service orders have been adequately proved in England and Wales and do not require a separate pilot scheme in Scotland.

Mr. Ewing

I place on record my thanks to my hon. Friend and members of the all-party group on penal reform for the interest that they are taking in the subject. If there is one good way to educate the public it is through all-party interest in what is a difficult and complex subject. I accept the latter point of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I agree that it is unfortunate that there are people in prison who in other circumstances need not be there. As my hon. Friend knows, we are arranging for community service orders to be introduced in four of the regions of Scotland. We look forward with keen anticipation to that experiment.

Mr. Rifkind

Is the Minister aware that he has not answered his hon. Friend's question? The hon. Gentleman asked why it was necessary to carry out an experiment in respect of community service orders in Scotland rather than take the experience of the community service experiment successfully carried out south of the border. Will the Minister agree to drop the new experiment in Scotland and go ahead with implementing community service orders?

Mr. Ewing

Community service orders in England are still at an experimental stage. We are examining what is happening in England. We shall apply any good results to Scotland. I believe that even the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is not always desirable to superimpose in Scotland something that happens elsewhere in the United Kingdom, whether it be England, Wales or any other part.

Mr. Henderson

Does the Minister have any views on the future of Peterhead Prison? Does he have any plans to visit the prison—[Interruption.] This is a serious matter. Does he have any plans to visit the prison to discuss the situation with prison officers?

Mr. Ewing

During last summer I took the opportunity to visit Peterhead Prison. I agree that the hon. Gentleman is making a serious point. There are difficult circumstances surrounding Peterhead Prison, especially in respect of the recruitment of prison officers, on account of its isolated situation. There are other related problems. As a result of the situation in penal establishments, Peterhead will remain a top security prison.