Terrorism (Hansard, 10 March 1977)

§ 11. Mr. Molyneaux
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied that the law as it stands is adequate to deal with terrorism.

§ Mr. Mason
In general, yes, Sir. We continue to study ways of improving our legal armoury but, as I have previously indicated to the House, we do not lack offences under existing law. More and more terrorists and their supporters are being brought before the courts, and it would be wrong to alter trial procedure in any way that would compromise basic standards of justice.

§ Mr. Molyneaux
Does the Minister accept that, although we agree in general that the Secretary of State has a formidable armoury of legislation, greater use could be made of certain aspects of legislation? Will he consider granting the RUC and Army officers powers, similar to those given to customs officers, to confiscate vehicles entering the United Kingdom by unapproved routes?

§ Mr. Mason
The hon. Member has asked about a point of detail that I am prepared to consider. However, I do not want to do anything that will undermine the present law in Northern Ireland. The RUC is now receiving a great deal of respect and esteem and it is proving to be very effective. Its record is good and its morale high. Above all, the law is fair and it is seen to be fair. I do not want to change the law in any way that would indicate to the Northern Ireland people that it is being bent.

§ Mr. Neave
I agree that good results have been obtained by the security forces in recent times, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are disappointed with his letter of 23rd February, rejecting our plan for a specific offence of terrorism? Is he further aware that in that letter he did not deal with the 1620 Explosive Substances Act, which lays down a maximum penalty of 14 years' imprisonment? Would it not be better if bombers, those who manage bomb factories and those who hide bombers were liable to a maximum penalty of life imprisonment? Bomb making is an act of terrorism with which the right hon. Gentleman did not deal in his letter.

§ Mr. Mason
The hon. Gentleman and the House will be aware that the idea of creating an offence of terrorism has been examined several times and rejected. The prosecution would have to demonstrate that there was political intent. That would raise again the question of political prisoners. We have moved away from that. The ending of special category prisoners and detention has made that clear. Secondly, almost every act associated with terrorism is a crime and is therefore punishable. I do not see any reason why we should try to single out one act of terrorism, or present terrorism as an offence in its own right.

§ Mr. Neave
Will the right hon. Gentleman deal with my specific point about the Explosive Substances Act as it relates to bombers? Does he appreciate that the maximum penalty is only 14 years' imprisonment and that judges complain bitterly because they cannot sentence people more heavily?

§ Mr. Mason
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there is an order pending which deals with the offence of hoax bombers. I shall take into consideration what he has said.

§ Mr. Bradford
Is the Secretary of State aware that his comments will afford little comfort to the wives and families of business men who are waiting to become the next targets? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there is no substiute for stopping these reprobates before they murder business men and the security forces?

§ Mr. Mason
I am sure that the comments of the hon. Gentleman will have helped. They are typical of one of the few politicians in Northern Ireland who speak in that fashion but who will not give any help to the communities as a whole. Such comments provide propaganda aid for terrorists whom we are intent upon denouncing. As for the 1621 prominent citizens whom the hon. Member has mentioned and who seem to be coming under attack—

§ Mr. Bradford
Seem to be?

§ Mr. Mason
Recently a number of people have come under attack. They are the soft targets. We have increased our surveillance, but it is difficult trying to cover everyone in the Province.

§ 12. Mr. Gow
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many deaths and woundings have taken place in Northern Ireland as a result of terrorism during the first two months of 1977; and what were the equivalent figures in each of the last four years.

§ Mr. Mason
In the first two months of this year 26 people were killed and 245 injured in Northern Ireland as a result of violence. The comparable figures for the first two months of each of the previous four years are: in 1976, 74 killed and 479 injured; in 1975, 27 killed and 215 injured; in 1974, 34 killed and 348 injured; and in 1973, 54 killed and 397 injured.

§ Mr. Gow
The House will be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that information, which shows that the numbers of deaths and injuries this year are significantly lower than in previous years, but will he enlarge upon the answer he gave a moment ago about the surveillance that is being given to members of the business community in Northern Ireland, particularly in view of the new wave of terror that is afflicting that section of the community?

§ Mr. Mason
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not give credence to the terrorists' campaign or help to publicise it. I have already said that prominent citizens in the community, not necessarily business men—the hon. Gentleman knows that it may be a member of the Orange Order, a magistrate, or a member of the UDR—seem to be the subject of attack by the Provisional IRA at the moment. I do not think that we should be complacent, but it is true that so far this year the numbers of deaths and woundings are generally lower than they have been in the previous four years. The House and the hon. Gentleman should be aware that in the first two months of this year 177 people were charged with terrorist 1622 offences, including 12 charged with murder and 19 with attempted murder. The RUC is maintaining its good record of attrition.

§ Mr. Fitt
Does my right hon. Friend agree that following the latest onslaught by the IRA all responsible political leaders in Northern Ireland have condemned the campaign vehemently, none more so than the spokesman for the party that I represent in this House, the SDLP? Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that in recent days the leaders of my party have come out in the strongest possible terms against the IRA campaign that is now being waged? Does my right hon. Friend agree that in Northern Ireland, where the IRA is waging a campaign against the RUC, the SDLP, by calling into question some of the questionable activities of certain members of the RUC, as highlighted on British television, is in no way aligning itself with the IRA in its campaign? The SDLP, like the RUC, is trying to defeat terrorism.

§ Mr. Mason
I am interested and encouraged to hear my hon. Friend's comments. I hope that he, with his party, will give encouragement to his community to join the RUC as well as to praise its courage. I admire the courage and honesty of the outspoken speech by the deputy leader of the SDLP, who told the Provisional IRA that it was getting nowhere and the quicker it stopped its activities the better.

§ Mr. McCusker
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a substantial number of the people mentioned in the statistics that he has given were my constituents? Is he also aware that so long as premeditated and cold-blooded killers can go around killing, almost with impunity, in all sections of Northern Ireland there will be the growing feeling that this can be combated only by reintroducing the death penalty? Will the right hon. Gentleman give serious consideration to that?

§ Mr. Mason
No, I shall not give any further serious consideration to the reintroduction of the death penalty in Northern Ireland. As far as I am concerned it has been abolished for good. If the death penalty were reintroduced the first man in Northern Ireland to be hanged would be the greatest martyr to be created for years. The propaganda 1623 value to the IRA and the Provisional IRA would be considerable. What is required of the hon. Gentleman and myself is for us to point out that this is a battle not only of propaganda but of wills, and that we have the will to win. If the people will back the RUC in its endeavours they will find out that it is beating the terrorists step by step. In 1976 934 persons were convicted, on indictment, of scheduled offences. It is by giving the RUC encouragement, standing by law and order, and being able to process people through the courts as common criminals that we shall beat the terrorists.

§ 20. Mr. Biggs-Davison
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is his strategy for the defeat of terrorism.

§ Mr. Roy Mason
I refer the hon. Member to what I said in the House on 17th December 1976 and 23rd February 1977.

§ Mr. Biggs-Davison
Is the Secretary of State aware that for months and years Opposition Members have pressed for the strengthening of the UDR—and in particular its full-time element—and for the closer co-ordination of all security forces? However, the time taken even to accept, let alone implement, such suggestions—and, indeed, the suggestion made again just now by the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux)—indicates a grave lack of urgency. In particular, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the first instalment of five full-time UDR platoons has been formed?

§ Mr. Mason
The strengthening of the UDR is going ahead. In the recent debate I announced that 200 professional UDR personnel were being 'recruited, and we are having great success. The liaison that now exists between the RUC and the Army has improved considerably. There is intelligence sharing and this helps the RUC regional squads to effect arrests. The five platoons that are being developed are going ahead successfully.