HC Deb 09 March 1977 vol 927 cc1468-71 The Secretary of State shall publish statistics of people receiving allowances under this Act as a separate item in any unemployment statistics published by him.—[Mr. Hayhoe.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Hayhoe

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I shall deal with this clause briefly, because we are making speedy progress and the Minister is being most helpful.

The clause is meant to cover the point that has arisen from some of our discussions. If we examine the unemployment statistics we see that people registered as unemployed are incorporated in the total and are regarded as being in another category. If a substantial number of people take up the provisions of this scheme—and we hope that there will be a substantial take-up, since a proportion of those people are at present regarded as unemployed—we suggest that the reality of the situation is that this merely reflects a transfer into a different type of benefit. Therefore, we believe that some provision should be made in the normal ways in which the statistics are issued, so that there is comparability. We believe that the scheme is a genuine job release scheme and is not, as was suggested earlier, an employment statistics obfuscation scheme. I am sure that that is not the Minister's intention, but it could be a side effect. I hope that he will be able to assure the Committee that arrangements will be made in the figures to avoid such a misunderstanding.

Mr. Golding

Before I explain my reasons for advising the Committee to reject the clause perhaps I should point out that I am not used to proceeding at such a speedy pace. I sympathise with the desire of hon. Members to see more regular information about the Government's employment measures. It would not be appropriate to give such information in the monthly unemployment figures. I am well aware of the point made by the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mr. Hayhoe). We certainly do not want to twist the figures. I am arranging for the figures on employment measures, including job release, to appear in the Department of Employment Gazette each month. That will make it possible for the hon. Gentleman to add the existing figures to the unemployment figures.

I turn to the new clause. If the intention is to add figures on job release to the monthly unemployment figures published by my Department, first in the regular Press notices and a little later in the Gazette, I must point out that the effect of the amendment would be wider than that. It would apply to the publication of unemployment statisics by the Secretary of State in any form. Although the hon. Gentleman probably is not aware of it, I must also point out that if the clause were carried, on each occasion that the Secretary of State mentioned the unemployment figures he would be forced to add the job release figures. We do not want to impose that burden on him. We do not wish to suggest to people who are receiving the job release allowances that they should be regarded as unemployed under another label. We believe that such people are not more "unemployed" than are retirement pensioners. We appreciate that that point could be argued, and that is why we are prepared to publish all the figures in the Department of Employment Gazette.

In any case. we would not want to be prevented from announcing the unemployment figures if, by some mischance, the job release figures were not available. For these practical reasons, we ask the hon. Gentleman not to press the clause, because we shall meet the spirit of his proposals by making all the figures available in the Gazette.

Mr. Hayhoe

I am grateful to the Minister for his proposal to publish the figures in the Gazette. However, will he think again about the question whether they should go as a note in the monthly statistics issued by his Department? It is those monthly statistics and the Press notices that are seen generally to be an important measure by which the employment situation may be judged. The monthly figures already give statistics relating to short-time working, adult students, and other matters. The reason that they are recorded is to give a complete picture and to make possible a comparison with what has happened in the past.

Will the Minister consider whether it would be possible to give this information in an additional note on the monthly Press statement? It has been suggested that one of the reasons behind this Bill is to find some way of making an artificial reduction—a cosmetic exercise—in the unemployment figures. I am sure that that is not the Minister's intention, but that this Bill is being presented because it contains a great deal of merit. If the Minister will give further consideration to the provision of a note, as I have suggested, I am sure that it will meet our requirements.

Mr. Golding

We shall examine the matter carefully, but there are many difficulties. If we do as the hon. Gentleman asks we shall be pressed to include yet other figures, related to training and many other matters. It could open the floodgates to requests for many other statistics to be included in Press notices, because, in general, Oppositions wish to focus on the number of unemployed.

However, I shall examine the matter and write to the hon. Gentleman. We shall be prepared to meet him to discuss the matter. We do not want to dodge any issue.

Mr. Hayhoe

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill reported, with amendments; as amended, considered.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

6.40 p.m.

Mr. Madel

We have had a constructive debate, but it is a pity that more hon. Members have not taken part, especially because since the Bill had its Second Reading there have been further difficulties with the unemployment figures and our economy. However, we are grateful to the Minister for the many ways in which he has met us over the question of parliamentary control and regular debates. We are glad that he is to have further discussions on the pension position and that the Government will seriously consider putting the job release figures in the monthly Press release from the Department. The Minister has been conciliatory and helpful to us. We wish the Bill well.

Nevertheless, we hope that our economy will improve and that the Bill will slide into abeyance, which must be the Minister's fervent hope. Whether the Government have to slide into abeyance as well, to get our economy moving again, is another matter, and I would not wish to be contentious. I leave the Minister with the thought that it all depends whether any constructive ideas emanate from the Dispatch Box on 29th March.

6.42 p.m.

Mr. Golding

I think that the progress of business shows that it is better for me to be in government than in opposition. I thank all hon. Members who have taken part in the debate for their constructive proposals. We shall look at them in detail. We desire a situation in which special measures are not necessary.

We hope that many more people in work will take advantage of the scheme. Many people who have done a lifetime of hard graft and toil deserve an extra year in which to put up their feet. We should like them to take advantage of the scheme, thereby allowing some younger people to have the jobs that they unfortunately cannot have at present.

We are grateful to the Opposition for the way in which they have approached the Bill. We hope that it will be a great success.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.