HC Deb 09 March 1977 vol 927 cc1399-402
19. Mr. George Rodgers

asked the Secretary of State for Transport if he has any plans for attracting an additional number of passengers to public transport.

Mr. William Rodgers

I am considering how best to ensure that public transport plays its proper part in the course of preparing my White Paper.

Mr. George Rodgers

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the most effective ways of conserving energy supplies is the greater utilisation of public transport? With that in mind, will he set about reducing the cost of public transport?

Mr. William Rodgers

I agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of public transport. I am glad to say that the resources devoted to it in recent years have been increased. The real problem is how we pay for improved public transport services. If they are not paid for by increased fares, which are unpopular, they must be paid for by taxation and rates, which are also unpopular. There is no easy way of providing a public transport system that does not make considerable demands, direct or indirect, upon those who enjoy its services.

Mr. Channon

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the large rise in fares in recent years has had a serious effect on many hundreds of thousands of people? Will he consider the experience of foreign countries in Europe and experience in the United States of America and Canada before coming forward with his White Paper? In many of those countries extra help is given to commuters in other ways.

Mr. William Rodgers

I shall consider overseas experience. However, we must face the facts. If fares are not to rise, services must be cut, or from taxation and rates there must be additional support for our public transport system. That means increases in public expenditure. We cannot have it both ways. That does not mean that public transport is not important. I recognise its importance and in my White Paper I shall be dealing with the issues that my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Rodgers) raised in his initial Question.

Mr. David Watkins

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the latest swingeing increase in bus fares, especially in the Northern Region, is one of the most major disincentives in the use of public transport yet devised?

Mr. William Rodgers

I am sympathetic to what my hon. Friend says. However, if fare increases are not to take place other services must be cut, and cut severely, or there must be additional allocation of resources in our public expenditure totals at a time when, by common consent, there can be no increase in ceilings. If we are to spend more in subsidising buses and railways, however justified that may be, where are we to find the money to do so? Is it to be done by reducing provision for schools, house building and the Health Service? Where is the money to come from? It does not grow on trees.

Mr. Evelyn King

In seeking to attract custom, will the right hon. Gentleman get someone to look into the question of catering facilities on trains? Bearing in mind the services provided and the quality of what is sold, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is profiteering on a grosser scale than in any other method of selling food that I know?

Mr. William Rodgers

I have never seen, on the railways, profiteering of the sort that the hon. Gentleman describes. His experience is very different from mine. Considering the difficult circumstances, the railways now make available first-class food. However, this matter is wholly unrelated to the demands for public transport.

Mr. Clemitson

In view of my right hon. Friend's statement, is he not assuming that the elasticity of demand for transport is constant at every price range? May it not be true that we are now getting into price ranges where the demand for public transport is becoming more and more elastic?

Mr. William Rodgers

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, but I am not sure what conclusion he expects me to draw. It is true that public transport can price itself out of the market with fare increases. That is a grave risk. However, if fares are not to increase we must subsidise to a greater extent. I ask the House to face this reality. Where is the money to come from? Are other programmes to be cut for this purpose?

Mr. Townsend

Bearing in mind British Railways' old-fashioned approach to the carrying of cycles, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that they have not understood the advantages of the modern bicycle? Will the right hon. Gentleman have a word with British Railways and bring them up to date?

Mr. William Rodgers

I am sure that British Railways will note that point.