HC Deb 09 March 1977 vol 927 cc1395-7
16. Mr. Stanbrook

asked the Secretary of State for Transport whether he will give a general direction to the Chairman of British Railways to provide accounts which show the costs of the different services properly apportioned.

Mr. William Rodgers

I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave to the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley) on Monday.

Mr. Stanbrook

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that unless full financial information and a total breakdown of costs are available, the British Railways management will not be able to do the job properly and public dissatisfaction will increase, because there will be no basis on which one can assess whether one is getting value for money? If the taxpayer is to foot the bill for British Railways, should their position not be fully itemised?

Mr. Rodgers

I have a great deal of sympathy with that view, but these matters have been discussed for over 30 years in the House and it is not easy to find a solution entirely satisfactory to everyone. The British Railways Board discussed this question in response to the consultation document, but it is difficult to find a method of apportionment that is wholly satisfactory and that would be endorsed by everyone. I am sure that the board will be anxious to publish as much information as it can, and I agree that it would help for the purposes of planning.

Mr. Ronald Atkins

If my right hon. Friend decides to do what is asked of him, will he, on grounds of consistency, look at the costings of different categories of road user, since it is generally accepted that private motorists cross-subsidise the commercial road users?

Mr. Rodgers

If it were within my power to do so I would succumb to my hon. Friend's suggestion, but, in replying on Monday to the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley), I made it clear that it would not be appropriate for me to give a statutory direction of the kind suggested.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that at a time when the House is discussing the provision of £45 million to British Railways for their freight deficit, some figures about the actual costs of those freight services should appear in their annual report?

Mr. Rodgers

These are matters which, having been discussed in the House, can be pursued in the Committee now sitting. I am not quarrelling with the argument that information should be made available if it is meaningful, but we should be aware of the problems of providing information which is not meaningful and significant and which could mislead.

Mr. John Ellis

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, for example, when British Rail claims that a line is becoming increasingly uneconomic and the service to passengers on it is therefore liable to withdrawal, and one adduces the cost of track maintenance when it is found that the track is to remain open for freight, people are right to be suspicious that British Railways have perhaps first thought up the strategy and then produced figures that will support it?

Mr. Rodgers

I do not think that British Railways normally approach their problems in this way. My own view is that at every level in British Railways there is a tremendous commitment to the future of the railways. However, they have to do their work within the framework set by Parliament and within the resources available. If my hon. Friend has any specific instance in mind, I shall pass on the information. If that is done, I am sure that British Railways will have an answer.