HC Deb 03 March 1977 vol 927 cc597-600
12. Mr. Ashley

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent steps he has taken to combat vandalism.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Since replying to a similar Question by my hon. Friend on 3rd February I have had discussions with my colleagues in other Departments and I hope that it will be possible to hold a conference soon.

Mr. Ashley

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I appreciate his reply, especially since many old and disabled people are terrified of vandalism? At the conference will he bear in mind that, if any generals suggest that there should be vigilante groups to combat vandalism, that suggestion should be rejected out of hand? However, will he consider setting up anti-vandal units in the Home Office and in each police area?

Mr. Rees

We are all against vigilante units. I think my hon. Friend will find that most police forces have an anti-vandalism unit or something similar. I am content that this work should be done locally because, although I can give a lead on behalf of the Government on dealing with vandalism, it has to be dealt with in the areas concerned.

Mr. Eldon Griffiths

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the difficult fight against the rising tide of vandalism is not being won and could be lost unless he deals with the problem of deteriorating morale, particularly among younger police officers?

Mr. Rees

I admit that morale is a problem, but even if the morale of the police were suddenly uplifted and their pay were increased I do not think that that would prove to be the main issue. From what I have read in many reports in the Home Office, I have learned that the problem of vandalism is far deeper than that. It is a scourge of modern society. It is not just youngsters deliberately breaking up things; it is such factors as the availability of ink that can be squirted all over the place and the way in which local authorities and others build housing estates. There are many aspects to the problem. It is not only a question of police conditions.

Mr. Heffer

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us who are very anxious to stop vandalism find it a difficult problem to solve? Is he aware, for instance, that I asked my local police to put on extra patrols and when they did I ran into criticism from parents in the area, who claimed that the police were picking up youngsters who had not been involved in vandalism? Will my right hon. Friend therefore keep a balance in this matter and realise that it is difficult to get it right?

Mr. Rees

I agree with my hon. Friend. He has discovered what I have learned in this job—that even though one has the best of intentions, one sometimes gets criticism. However, that is what we are paid for.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that vandalism relates not only to damage and destruction of property but to damage and destruction of people? In the light of the callous and brutal murders in my constituency within the last week, will he consider bringing in a referendum to allow the people of this country to decide whether there should be a capital deterrent?

Mr. Rees

It would not be right for me to comment on a case that is subjudice. As with vandalism, there is no simple answer to the problem with which the hon. Gentleman is concerned. That has been found over the years.

Mr. Raphael Tuck

Would my hon. Friend consider my suggestion in regard to vandals and all hooligans? Do not put them in prison or on probation; stick them in the Army for three years. That will give them discipline—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is asking a question and answering it at the same time. Perhaps he will complete a question.

Mr. Tuck

I was asking my right hon. Friend whether he would consider sticking them in the Army. Does he not agree that this would discipline them and give them a lesson that they would never forget and would probably discourage future acts of vandalism?

Mr. Rees

If my hon. Friend puts that to people in the Army, they will tell him where he can stick his answer.

Mr. Whitelaw

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the 1975 report of Chief Superintendent Chappell of the Merseyside police entitled "Report on the Social and Police Problems in Kirkby"? Is he aware that the report discloses a very serious state of lawlessness there, with vandalism rife, a very high crime rate, serious truancy in the schools, and mas- sive arrears of rent? Is it not important that the authorities in the area should be backed so that they can re-establish some sense of community?

Mr. Rees

I have not read the report, but I shall now do so. Rent arrears occur in all parts of the country, just as drug-taking occurs more often in the higher income groups than in the lower income groups. We need to look at these problems in depth, and I shall read the report.

Mr. Speaker

The next Question—Mr. Patrick Mayhew.

Mr. Ogden

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw) made direct references to conditions in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk). In those circumstances, and assuming that the right hon. Gentleman knew exactly what he was doing, my hon. Friend should have an opportunity to put a more balanced view.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I want to be fair. Perhaps the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk) will ask his question.

Mr. Kilroy-Silk

Will my right hon. Friend point out to the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw), who has made a terrible slur on the town of Kirkby and the people who live there, that many of the local people resent the unfair generalisations of the Chappell Report and that the people of the town suffer to a higher degree than anywhere else in Western Europe from social deprivation and unemployment?

Mr. Rees

I have not read the report, but my hon. Friend will remember that I visited his area There is no doubt that there are problems in my hon. Friend's area. There are problems in other parts of the country as well. There is no doubt that one factor is economic and social deprivation, for which we have a responsibility.