HC Deb 21 June 1977 vol 933 cc1074-7
4. Mr. McCrindle

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he still plans to introduce legislation in the current Session requiring trade unions to occupy half the trustee positions under an occupational pension scheme.

19. Mrs. Chalker

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he intends to publish proposals for putting trade unionists on pension fund boards.

The Minister for Social Security (Mr. Stanley Orme)

The Government's proposals concerning the role of members in the running of pension schemes were published last year, but no decision has yet been taken about the introduction of legislation in this Session.

Mr. McCrindle

I welcome that reply as far as it goes and express the hope that the Minister will tell me that there is no intention to introduce legislation next Session, should the present Government survive. Will he confirm that in a recent public opinion survey almost 70 per cent. of the people interviewed disapproved of the Government's proposals, whereas more than 80 per cent. approved of the idea of all employees, and not just trade unionists, being involved in the running of their pension schemes? Why are the Government so obstinate about taking note of public opinion on these matters?

Mr. Orme

I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman's negative attitude. I should have thought that he would welcome proposals that brought industrial democracy to 11 million people in Britain in occupational pension schemes. The hon. Gentleman refers to the CBI survey. That is only one that has taken place.

Mr. Clemitson

Is it not true that according to the latest report from the Government Actuary's Department, 75 per cent. of those in the public sector and 88 per cent. in the case of public corporations are covered by pension funds, as compared with only 39 per cent. in the private sector, and that the general level of pensions in the public sector is higher than that in the private sector? Will my right hon. Friend say how the representation of members of funds in the public sector compares with that in the private sector?

Mr. Orme

It is quite true that in the public sector there is a higher percentage of members. Frankly, one of our objectives is to increase occupational pensions in both the private and the public sectors. As to what percentage take part in the management of these schemes, it is the Government's desire, through the White Paper, to see that this participation goes right across the board, including both private and public sectors.

Mr. Paul Dean

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise, however, that voluntary participation in the management of pension schemes is developing rapidly in the present context? Does he realise that some of us who have laboured to obtain an agreed pension policy will profoundly regret it if he pursues divisive and unnecessary legislation in this field?

Mr. Orme

After the Government's widespread consultation within industry, with both sides, the White Paper has done more to bring about participation in the last 12 months than what has taken place in the last 20 years in pension schemes. Many managements pay lip-service to participation but never consult their employees on any basis.

Mr. Skinner

Has my right hon. Friend read the report that appeared in The Guardian a few days ago which indicates, from a supposedly reliable Liberal source, that this measure will be shelved? [AN HON. MEMBER: "Where are the Liberals?"] They are not present, as usual. They are absentee part-landlords. On this day, when we have been discussing the nature of our next Queen's Speech and the legislative programme for the next year, will my right hon. Friend announce that the measure will not be shelved but will be introduced, and that he will be exerting the greatest possible pressure to that end?

Mr. Orme

I thank my hon. Friend certainly for his reference to The Guardian. I read that report with great interest. I can inform my hon. Friend and the House that the Government are still seriously considering the Bill based on the White Paper. We hope to be able to make an announcement in the not-too-distant future.

Mr. Peter Bottomley

Will the Minister say what kind of democracy it is that would exclude any member of a pension scheme from voting for the trustees? What surveys does he have which rebut the findings of the CBI survey?

Mr. Orme

The Government's proposals are to give the vast majority of people in pension schemes the vote for the first time.

Mr. Tim Renton

Why not all of them?

Mr. Orme

As I have indicated, many people have not been consulted in the past, and the Government, through their White Paper, believe that the trade unions, which have conducted negotiations on every other aspect of conditions for working people, can be entrusted with this one as well.