§ 3.49 p.m.
§ Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, Central)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Rent Acts.The Bill would amend the Rent Acts in so far as the county court now alone has the power to question the nature of a disputed tenancy of a residential property. This problem came to my mind as a result of a surgery that I was holding in my constituency. A young couple came to see me about the possibility of obtaining a council house. As is customary on these occasions, I explained that the allocation of council tenancies was a matter for the Hull District Council and not a matter in which I could directly intervene. However, I took down the particulars.When I noted the address at which the couple were then living—12 Morpeth Street—I became interested. I asked what rent they were paying and was told that it was £12.50p plus rates. I was astounded. The house is in the centre of my constituency in an area which is going through the usual inner city problems. I understand from the Environmental Health Officer in Hull that as late as May there were still a number of items of disrepair outstanding for which an informal notice has been issued.
The reason why my constituents were prepared to pay such an extremely high rent was that they were desperate for housing. They informed me that they were advised by the landlord that if the wife applied for a mail order catalogue, the tenancy would then be a business tenancy because the wife would be operating a business from the property.
I thought that this was a load of nonsense and that it was a clear attempt to evade the provisions of the Rent Acts, which seek to protect tenants. My constituents did not know whether planning permission had ever been sought by the landlord to change the residential property to business premises. I therefore sent them to the rent officer. I wrote to 639 him and received a reply which reads as follows:
Hopper and Levy12 Morpeth StreetThe above address has been let before Mr. Hopper's time—Mr. Hopper is my constituent—by the Landlord on the basis, that if the wife takes up a weekly-payment catalogue-agency then these are business premises. The prospective tenant is induced to sign a lease to the effect that he is renting business premises. As such they are outside the purview of the Rent Officer Service.This was explained to Mr. Hopper, on his visit here, on the 23rd March"—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he ought to outline what Bill he is proposing to bring before the House and not use the procedure as an Adjournment debate to argue his constituent's case.
§ Mr. McNamaraWith the greatest respect, Mr. Speaker, I am not arguing my constituent's case.
I have been speaking for three minutes outlining the circumstances which have led me to seek a change in the Rent Act. Unless I explain the circumstances, the provision that I am seeking to have altered does not have a great deal of relevance. I am seeking to explain the circumstances of a constituent who finds that her position cannot be rectified by the normal methods of the Rent Acts but that it can be altered by the creation of a false business tenancy. I am seeking to amend the Rent Acts so that the rent officer can adjudicate—that was the point that I was making—and then have an appeal on the disputed tenancy arrangement to the county court instead of the rent officer not having jurisdiction.
It is important that the House should understand through a particular constituency case the circumstances in which this matter arises. I am sorry if you, Mr. Speaker, feel that I am initiating an Adjournment debate, because I understand that an Adjournment debate cannot deal with legislation. Indeed, I am referring not to a particular constituency case as such but merely to the principle involved in seeking to alter the legislation. I should like your guidance on the matter.
§ Mr. SpeakerI should like the hon. Gentleman to do us all a favour and tell 640 us what is in his Ten-Minute Rule Bill, because his time is running out.
§ Mr. McNamaraWhat I want to do is get a situation in which the rent officer has jurisdiction, which he does not have at present, with regard to a disputed tenancy where unscrupulous landlords are seeking to evade the provisions of the Rent Act.
In the case that I have cited, that of creating a false business tenancy, this is a problem which is at present outside the rent officer's jurisdiction. The only solution that a constituent has is to go to the Court.
The purpose of my Bill is to get away from the situation where a landlord can, for example, say that if a person brews home beer on the premises, it is a brewery, or that if he repairs his motor cycle, it is a garage and, therefore, a business tenancy. I want to get to a situation in which the Act is not bypassed by an unscrupulous landlord and in which the rent officer can decide what should be a fair rent, assuming that it is a residential property. If a party feels aggrieved, in this case the landlord, he should be able to go to the county court.
I understand that I started speaking at 3.49 p.m., which means that I still have four minutes to go in order to go through the various problems associated with this matter.
I have correspondence from the rent officer showing that this can be dealt with through proper zoning by a local authority. All of us know, as I am sure you do, Mr. Speaker, from the inner city part of your constituency, of the problems that affect run-down areas of cities as a result of trying to enforce planning measures. I wanted to quote a letter from the landlord in which he advised my tenant to apply for planning permission when, in fact, I understand from the situation that the three companies involved—Pethro Properties, Humberside Properties and J and G Properties—all decided a year ago, as a matter of policy, that all residential property should be changed to business tenancies or pseudo-business tenancies when planning permission had not been sought.
They were working in a situation in which they knew that tenants who were desperate for housing would not know their way round the law and would not go 641 to the county court but would, for a certain time, take this property at a high rent and then flit elsewhere. That is the sort of problem that worries the landlord. Quite honestly, Mr. Speaker, I find it very difficult to understand why you sought to interrupt me in seeking to give the circumstances in order to explain the change in the law which is the purpose of my Bill.
§ Mr. Patrick Wall (Haltemprice)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Gentleman appears to be accusing a constituent of mine of irregular, if not illegal behaviour. Is that in order on a Ten-Minute Rule Bill?
§ Mr. SpeakerI think that the longest way round is the shortest way home.
§ Mr. McNamaraI am not accusing a person of doing anything at all illegal. I am saying that he is, in fact, abusing the spirit of the Act and carrying on in a way deliberately intended to evade the Act. That is what he is doing. I am seeking to make sure that a constituent who lives in salubrious Kirkella and not in the middle of Morpeth Street should be guided by the purposes of the Act as was originally intended.
I hope that the Minister for Housing and Construction will take this very much on board, because if tomorrow—if I get the motion through the House now—I do not have time to have a Second Reading, it is important that the matter should be taken on board by the Government.
Since I was stopped in the flow of my oratory I have been prevented from demonstrating the importance of this matter by correspondence that I have had from the landlord to whom I wrote to make sure that I knew exactly what his side of the case was. I intended to be fair. I like to believe that I am fair. But that has not been possible because of interruptions.
§ 4 p.m.
§ Mr. John Wells(Maidstone)rose—
642§ Mr. SpeakerDoes the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Wells) wish to oppose the application of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, Central (Mr. McNamara)?
§ Mr. WellsI do, Mr. Speaker, but I shall be very brief.
It is very distasteful in the month of July and even in the latter part of the month of June to have offered to the House Ten-Minute Bills dealing with specific cases which seek to raise the hopes of innocent people such as the constituent of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, Central (Mr. McNamara). Had the hon. Gentleman been dealing with broad generalities throughout his speech, one could have said that the Government should take on board those broad generalities and that they might have incorporated the broad concept of them in a Queen's Speech later in the autumn.
The fact that the House will be rising the day after tomorrow means, as the hon. Gentleman confessed, that his Bill has no prospect of becoming law. Therefore, he can be seeking leave to introduce it only for one of two reasons. The first is his own personal publicity. I know that he would not dream of doing that. At this time of the year in the past, it has been done frequently by the Liberal Party. But I exonerate the hon. Gentleman from that.
The hon. Gentleman's second reason for introducing his Bill may be to raise the hopes of constituents and innocent people throughout the country. It is that of which I accuse him.
§ Mr. McNamararose—
§ Mr. WellsNo. I am not giving way to the hon. Gentleman. He has had his say.
With the best will in the world, I believe that the hon. Gentleman is seeking to raise false hopes. Therefore, as his Bill has no prospect of becoming law, I believe that it should not be allowed to proceed.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees
644§ at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 219, Noes 155.
645| DIVISION NO 222] | AYES | [4.01 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Golding, John | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Anderson, Donald | Gould, Bryan | Ovenden, John |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Gourlay, Harry | Padley, Walter |
| Ashley, Jack | Graham, Ted | Palmer, Arthur |
| Ashton, Joe | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Pardoe, John |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Grant, John (Islington C) | Parry, Robert |
| Atkinson, Norman | Grocott, Bruce | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Penhaligon, David |
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Hardy, Peter | Perry, Ernest |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Harper, Joseph | Phipps, Dr Colin |
| Bates, Alt | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Prescott, John |
| Beith, A. J. | Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Hatton, Frank | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Hayman, Mrs Helene | Richardson, Miss Jo |
| Bishop, Rt Hon Edward | Heffer, Eric S. | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Hooley, Frank | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Horam, John | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Bradley, Tom | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Huckfield, Les | Rooker, J. W. |
| Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Roper, John |
| Buchan, Norman | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Rose, Paul B. |
| Buchanan, Richard | Hunter, Adam | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Butler Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Ryman, John |
| Campbell, Ian | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Sandelson, Neville |
| Canavan, Dennis | Jeger, Mrs Lena | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Cant, R. B. | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Carter, Ray | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Judd, Frank | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cartwright, John | Kaufman, Gerald | Small, William |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Kelly, Richard | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Kerr, Russell | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Snape, Peter |
| Cohen, Stanley | Kinnock, Neil | Spearing, Nigel |
| Coleman, Donald | Lamble, David | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Conlan, Bernard | Lamond, James | Stallard, A. W. |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Corbett, Robin | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Cowans, Harry | Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) | Stoddart, David |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Strang, Gavin |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Litterick, Tom | Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Loyden, Eddie | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Cronin, John | Luard, Evan | Swain, Thomas |
| Cunningham, Dr J.(Whiteh) | McDonald, Dr Oonagn | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Davidson, Arthur | McElhone, Frank | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | MacFarquhar, Roderick | Thorne Stan (Preston South) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Thorne, Stan Hon Jeremy(N Devon) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Maclennan, Robert | Thorpe Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Deakins, Eric | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Tierney, Sydney |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | McNamara, Kevin | Tinn, James |
| Dempsey, James | Madden, Max | Torney, Tom |
| Dormand, J, D. | Magee, Bryan | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Mahon, Simon | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Dunnett, Jack | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Ward, Michael |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Marks, Kenneth | Watkins, David |
| Eadie, Alex | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Weitzman, David |
| Edge, Geoff | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | While, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | While, James (Pollok) |
| English, Michael | Mendelson, John | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Ennals, David | Mikardo, Ian | Whitlock, William |
| Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Miller, Mrs Millie (llford N) | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Mitchell, Austin Vernon (Grimsby) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Molloy, William | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Moonman, Eric | Woodall, Alec |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Woof, Robert |
| Forrester, John | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Fraser, John | Newens, Stanley | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) | Noble, Mike | |
| Freud, Clement | Oakes, Gordon | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | O'Halloran, Michael | Mr. Martin Flannery and |
| Ginsburg, David | Orbach, Maurice | Mr. Terry Walker. |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss | Onslow, Cranley |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Haselhurst, Alan | Osborn, John |
| Alison, Michael | Hawkins, Paul | Page, John (Harrow West) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Hayhoe, Barney | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Banks, Robert | Higgins, Terence L. | Page, Richard (Workington) |
| Benyon, W. | Howell, David (Guildford) | Parkinson, Cecil |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Blaker, Peter | Hunt, John (Bromley) | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hurd, Douglas | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | James, David | Prior, Rt Hon James |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd) | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Jessel, Toby | Raison, Timothy |
| Brooke, Peter | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) | Rathbone, Tim |
| Brotherton, Michael | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Kershaw, Anthony | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Kilfedder, James | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Kimball, Marcus | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Carlisle, Mark | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Knox, David | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Lamont, Norman | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Latham, Michael (Melton) | Sainsbury, Tim |
| Cockcroft, John | Lawrence, Ivan | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Lawson, Nigel | Scott, Nicholas |
| Costain, A. P. | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) |
| Crouch, David | Lloyd, Ian | Shepherd, Colin |
| Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford) | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Sims, Roger |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | McCrindle, Robert | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Drayson, Burnaby | Macfarlane, Neil | Speed, Keith |
| Durant, Tony | MacGregor, John | Spence, John |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) |
| Elliott, Sir William | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Stainton, Keith |
| Farr, John | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Stanley, John |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Marten, Neil | Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Mates, Michael | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Mather, Carol | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Forman, Nigel | Mawby, Ray | Tapsell, Peter |
| Fry, Peter | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S) |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Tuck, Raphael |
| Godber, Rt Hon Joseph | Mills, Peter | Viggers, Peter |
| Goodhew, Victor | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Wakeham, John |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Moate, Roger | Wall, Patrick |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Molyneaux, James | Walters, Dennis |
| Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Weatherill. Bernard |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Gray, Hamish | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Griffiths, Eldon | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Mudd, David | Younger, Hon George |
| Grist, Ian | Nelson, Anthony | |
| Grylls, Michael | Neubert, Michael | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Newton, Tony | Mr. Norman Tebbit and |
| Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Normanton, Tom | Mr. John Wells. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Kevin McNamara, Mr. John Ellis, Mr. James Johnson, Mr. John Prescott, Mr. Austin Mitchell, Mr. Bruce Grocott, Mr. Robin Corbett, and Dr. Edmund Marshall.