§ Mr. David HowellI beg to move Amendment No. 109, in page 24, line 24, leave out "£5,000" and insert "£6,500".
§ No. 110, in page 24, line 43, leave out "£5,000" and insert "£6,500".
§ No. 111, in page 25, line 28, leave out "£5,000" and insert "£6,500".
§
No. 48, in page 24, leave out lines 35 to 37, and insert—
'(b) with a deduction for the amount treated as a deduction under sections 189, 192 or 194(3) of the Taxes Act for the immediately precedir4, year of assessment.'.
§ Mr. HowellThe amendment has the effect of raising the limit, defined as the higher-paid limit, from £5,000 to £6,500 a year. The Bill includes a proposal by the Government anyway to raise the figure to £7,500, but to do so next year, and we see no reason why it should not be raised to £6,500 this year to reflect the changes resulting from inflation since the figure was first set at £5,000 in 1974 and the changes in average earnings. We think that this is a realistic proposal.
§ Mr. Robert SheldonIn opposing the amendment I point out that it would mean a major alteration, requiring the recoding of about 500,000 assessments, of the PAYE coding, which has been operating since April of this year. The hon. Member has used the arguments adduced in support of indexing in our previous debates, but it is not necessary, even if one agrees with the indexing argument—and I do not agree with all of it by any means—each year to index every item that changes in value. What we seek to do is to take account of various factors and to make adjustments from time to time. This adjustment takes place next year,
§ which we believe to be the right time. I oppose the amendment.
§ Mr. David HowellThe brevity and inadequacy of the Financial Secretary's reply were even greater than the brevity of my initial speech. As the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, the original P11D limit on the definition of higher-paid employment was four times average earnings in 1948. By 1974 it had fallen to about two and a half times average earnings. If it were now raised to £6,500, it would not be even twice average earnings. If we go on like this, anybody with average earnings will be defined as being higher paid.
The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the recoding that would be required this year. Has he considered the other side of the question and thought about the millions of work people who, because their expenses are taken into account to decide whether they are higher paid, will have their incomes subjected to the scrutiny of the Inland Revenue to see whether those emoluments are taxable?
Last year hundreds of thousands of workers were threatened with being defined as higher paid, and the Financial Secretary's hon. Friends rushed into the Chamber to say that he should let them off and that their amendment had a result that was not what they desired. This year we are at the point where people on average earnings and with expenses and so on will find themselves defined as being higher paid.
This is madness. The amount should be changed this year as the Government are to change it next year, and I advise my hon. and right hon. Friends to press the amendment to make the change now and to make some sense of the situation.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 230, Noes 261.
197| Division No. 210] | AYES | [11.39 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Berry, Hon Anthony | Brooke, Peter |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Biffen, John | Brotherton, Michael |
| Alison, Michael | Biggs-Davison, John | Bryan, Sir Paul |
| Arnold, Tom | Blaker, Peter | Buchanan-Smith, Alick |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Body, Richard | Buck, Antony |
| Banks, Robert | Boscawen, Hon Robert | Bulmer, Esmond |
| Bell, Ronald | Bottomley, Peter | Butler, Adam (Bosworth) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) | Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) | Carlisle, Mark |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Braine, Sir Bernard | Chalker, Mrs Lynda |
| Benyon, W. | Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Channon, Paul |
| Churchill, W. S. | Howell, David (Guildford) | Raison, Timothy |
| Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Rathbone, Tim |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Hunt, John (Bromley) | Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Clegg, Walter | Hurd, Douglas | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) |
| Cockcroft, John | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Reid, George |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | James, David | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) |
| Cope, John | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd) | Rhodes James, R. |
| Cormack, Patrick | Jessel, Toby | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Corrie, John | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Costain, A. P. | Jones, Arthur (Daventry) | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Critchley, Julian | Jopling, Michael | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Crouch, David | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Drayson, Burnaby | Kershaw, Anthony | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Kimball, Marcus | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Dunlop, John | King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Sainsbury, Tim |
| Durant, Tony | Knight, Mrs Jill | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Dykes, Hugh | Knox, David | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Lamont, Norman | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Latham, Michael (Melton) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Elliott, Sir William | Lawson, Nigel | Shepherd, Colin |
| Emery, Peter | Le Marchant, Spencer | Shersby, Michael |
| Eyre, Reginald | Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Silvester, Fred |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Lloyd, Ian | Sims, Roger |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Loveridge, John | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Farr, John | Luce, Richard | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) |
| Fell, Anthony | McCrindle, Robert | Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield) |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Macfarlane, Nell | Speed, Keith |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | MacGregor, John | Spence, John |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Sproat, Iain |
| Forman, Nigel | Madel, David | Stainton, Keith |
| Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Fox, Marcus | Marten, Neil | Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) |
| Fry, Peter | Mates, Michael | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Mather, Carol | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Maude, Angus | Stokes, John |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Mawby, Ray | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Taylor, R. (Croydon NW) |
| Goodhart, Philip | Mayhew, Patrick | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Goodhew, Victor | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Tebbit, Norman |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Gorst, John | Mills, Peter | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Miscampbell, Norman | Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S) |
| Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Thompson, George |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Moate, Roger | Townsend, Cyril D |
| Grieve, Percy | Monro, Hector | Trotter, Neville |
| Griffiths, Eldon | Moore, John (Croydon C) | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Grist, Ian | Morgan, Geraint | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Grylls, Michael | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral | Viggers, Peter |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) | Wakeham, John |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Mudd, David | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Hannam, John | Neave, Airey | Wall, Patrick |
| Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Nelson, Anthony | Warren, Kenneth |
| Harvie Anderson, Rt non Miss | Neubert, Michael | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Newton, Tony | Wells, John |
| Hastings, Stephen | Normanton, Tom | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Onslow, Cranley | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Henderson, Douglas | Osborn, John | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Hicks, Robert | Page, John (Harrow West) | Wood, Rt Hon Richard |
| Higgins, Terence L. | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Hodgson, Robin | Page, Richard (Workington) | |
| Holland, Philip | Pattie, Geoffrey | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hordern, Peter | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Mr Peter Morrison |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) |
| Allaun, Frank | Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Buchan, Norman |
| Anderson, Donald | Bidwell, Sydney | Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Bishop, Rt Hon Edward | Campbell, Ian |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Blenkinsop, Arthur | Canavan, Dennis |
| Ashton Joe | Boardman, H. | Cant, R. B. |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Carmichael, Neil |
| Atkinson, Norman | Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Carter-Jones, Lewis |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Cartwright, John |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Castle, Rt Hon Barbara |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Bradley, Tom | Clemitson, Ivor |
| Bates, Alf | Bray, Dr Jeremy | Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) |
| Bean, R. E. | Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Cohen, Stanley |
| Beith, A. J. | Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Coleman, Donald |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Phipps, Dr Colin |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Hunter, Adam | Prescott, John |
| Corbett, Robin | Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| Cowans, Harry | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Rees, Rt Hon Marlyn (Leeds S) |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Janner, Greville | Richardson, Mise Jo |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Jeger, Mrs Lena | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Cronin, John | John, Brynmor | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Cryer, Bob | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Kaufman, Gerald | Roper, John |
| Davidson, Arthur | Kerr, Russell | Rose, Paul B. |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) | Kinnock, Nell | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Lamble, David | Ryman, John |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Lamborn, Harry | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Deakins, Eric | Lamond, James | Selby, Harry |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Dempsey, James | Leadbitter, Ted | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Doig, Peter | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Dormand, J. D. | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Lomas, Kenneth | Silverman, Julius |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Loyden, Eddie | Skinner, Dennis |
| Dunnett, Jack | Luard, Evan | Small, William |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Lyon, Alexander (York) | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Eadie, Alex | Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Edge, Geoff | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Snape, Peter |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | McCartney, Hugh | Spearing, Nigel |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Spriggs, Leslie |
| English, Michael | McElhone, Frank | Stallard, A. W. |
| Ennals, David | MacFarquhar, Roderick | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Stott, Roger |
| Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Maclennan, Robert | Strang, Gavin |
| Evans, John (Newton) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | McNamara, Kevin | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Madden, Max | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Magee, Bryan | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Flannery, Martin | Maguire, Frank (Fermanagh) | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mahon, Simon | Tierney, Sydney |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Tinn, James |
| Ford, Ben | Marks, Kenneth | Tomlinson, John |
| Forrester, John | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Torney, Tom |
| Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) | Maynard, Miss Joan | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Freeson, Reginald | Meacher, Michael | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Mikardo, Ian | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| George, Bruce | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Ward, Michael |
| Gilbert, Dr John | Mitchell, Austin Vernon (Grimsby) | Watkins, David |
| Golding, John | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) | Watkinson, John |
| Gould, Bryan | Molloy, William | Weetch, Ken |
| Gourlay, Harry | Moonman, Eric | Wellbeloved, James |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | While, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | While, James (Pollok) |
| Grocott, Bruce | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Moyle, Roland | Whitlock, William |
| Hardy, Peter | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Harper, Joseph | Newens, Stanley | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Noble, Mike | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Oakes, Gordon | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Ogden, Eric | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Hatton, Frank | O'Halloran, Michael | Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton) |
| Hayman, Mrs Helene | Orbach, Maurice | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Ovenden, John | Woodall, Alec |
| Hooley, Frank | Palmer, Arthur | Woof, Robert |
| Hooson, Emlyn | Pardoe, John | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Horam, John | Park, George | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) | Parry, Robert | |
| Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Pendry, Tom | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Huckfield, Les | Penhaligon, David | Mr David Stoddart and |
| Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Perry, Ernest | Mr Ted Graham |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
198§ Amendment made: No. 49, in page25, line 23, after 'in', insert 'Part I of'. —[Mr. Joel Barnett.]