HC Deb 20 July 1977 vol 935 cc1582-4
8. Mr. MacFarquhar

asked the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a further statement on the role of county councils in the formulation of transport policy, in the light of his White Paper.

Mr. William Rodgers

I intend to hold consultations with the local authority associations on the relevant aspects of the White Paper proposals and I shall have nothing further to say until they have taken place.

Mr. MacFarquhar

I welcome the proposal for devolving certain power to councils to enable them to form county transport plans, but does my right hon. Friend concede that there is a built-in likelihood that this proposal will lead to conflict between county councils and national operators such as bus companies and British Rail? How does my right hon. Friend propose that such conflict should be resolved without resort to his own final decision, thus making nonsense of the whole proposal to devolve powers?

Mr. Rodgers

In this area, as in many others, there is always the possibility of conflict. My hon. Friend is asking me to do precisely what I said I cannot do. We must find formulae for ironing out conflict, which is bound to occur from time to time. This should be our objective. I am glad to have my hon. Friend's approval for plans to give responsibilities which do not exist at present to the county councils to prepare county public transport plans.

Mr. Marten

Is not the answer to leave it to the county councils, except where there is conflict arising from the crossing of boundaries in the various counties, where the Traffic Commissioners—the bureaucratic non-busybodies in this case—should act as a court of appeal between the counties?

Mr. Rodgers

I am always grateful to have helpful suggestions from the hon. Gentleman. That was more helpful than some of his suggestions.

Mr. Grocott

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the county council areas are meaningless areas from the point of view of administration and determination of transport policy and many other policies, particularly since May? Does he accept that until the Government have a proper regional policy for England future transport policy and many other areas of policy will be seriously hindered?

Mr. Rodgers

That would be a very pessimistic approach to take to the known case for regional government of one form or another—I have sometimes looked kindly on it myself—but whether or not there is a case for it, and whenever it might occur, there is still a great deal of scope for intelligent public transport planning meanwhile, and that is what I want to see.

Mr. Moate

How does the Secretary of State expect to formulate policy jointly with county councils when he was quoted recently as describing Conservative-controlled councils as the enemy camp? Why did the right hon. Gentleman authorise his political adviser to send out party-political propaganda on Department of Transport notepaper urging Labour groups to make the maximum political capital at the expense of Conservative councils? Leaving aside the sheer incompetence of sending a copy to the Conservative leader of a Conservative council, will the right hon. Gentleman now admit that his action in authorising this to be done was not only politically inept but a misuse of public funds?

Mr. Rodgers

I think that the answer to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question is that there was a cock-up. Such things happen from time to time, even in the best ordered societies. On the first point, I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. There is often disagreement on political matters. It is often the case that the central Government are in political control which is different from that of local government in one area or another. Although we still maintain our position as party members and we say some rude things about one another, this does not exclude consultation, and, quite honestly, I do not believe that the local authority associations will refuse to consult on these matters simply because I have said a few rude words about certain authorities.